Case 154cm Mini Trapper

J

jth250

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Jun 27, 2011
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I picked up a case mini trapper with 154cm blades and I have been using a Gec 66 Moose for edc. So my question is has anyone used a case knife with 154cm. If so how do they compare in edge holding and ease of sharpening to GEC 1095 and which would be the better steel for an edc knife. Any comments would be appreciated.
 
Haven't see one of those but I do have a few Case/Bose collaboration knives in 154cm steel that hold an edge very well. They do take more effort to get a sharp than Case's CV or GEC's 1095.
 
Don't have a Case in 154 CM but I did carry and use a good deal of 154 cm knives for years. Good stuff. Don't hesitate if you like the knife. Mine would still rust from fingerprints though.
 
154CM will hold an edge far longer than 1095.
1095 will be easier to sharpen.
 
I was thinking this would have had more response from the guys that use the Case Bose collaboration knives?

Is there still a high and low tempering option on 154cm? How does case do it?

Kevin
 
Case did a limited run of 154CM blades in 'red barnboard' bone, back in 2007 I believe. These weren't the Case/Bose collab knives, but essentially standard line (save for the steel). I lusted over a few of them, but never pulled the trigger (they weren't cheap).

At any rate, I'm sure the steel is top-notch. Twice the carbon content of 420HC (Tru-Sharp) for edge-holding, plus 4% Molybdenum (toughness/strength) and a little vanadium too (refines grain, adds some abrasion-resistance).
 
Thanks for the info David :)

I would add my 2cents on 154cm but my knives are NOT Case made and I believe the heat treat of this steel makes a big difference?

Thanks a lot,

Kevin
 
I have two Case Bose 154CM. They get a good fine edge, as nice as 1095 but it lasts much longer than 1095. I've never had a GEC, my 1095 is either vintage fixed blades or current Queen production.
 
richstag said:
Thanks for the info David :)

I would add my 2cents on 154cm but my knives are NOT Case made and I believe the heat treat of this steel makes a big difference?

Thanks a lot,

Kevin
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Definitely, as with any steel, between different makers who use different 'recipes' for heat treat. I also have some 154CM knives from other makers. Even assuming they're treating them differently (but within reasonable limits), I've never seen a 154CM blade I didn't like. :)

Edited to add:
I've read that Molybdenum, in fairly high percentage (above 1%), makes the steel less brittle at higher hardness. At 4% Mo content, I'd think that bodes very well for taking 154CM to higher RC levels during heat treat. Seems like it'd be a waste not to.
 
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Thanks David :)

Heat treating is not a topic I am well versed in even though I used to spend days reading about it. I just remembered 154cm had some option to temper at a high or low temp. I can personally say I do not have a 154cm blade that I am unhappy with. Quite the opposite actually, and I never had trouble sharpening this steel either :)
 
This is a vendor's (partial) description of one of the limited-run 'Red Barnboard' Case knives (Folding Hunter) in 154CM. They were apparently limited to a total of 250. The bolded text gives some clue as to how Case might've spec'd the heat-treat & hardness. In case anyone wonders, this description is from a listing that's long since sold out. Too bad (I'm still kicking myself). This particular vendor (unnamed) listed the price at $199.99, a good ways past what these sold for when they were first released, which is also why I'm still kicking myself. :(

"Exotic Steel, 154 CM Steel. Barnboard Jigged Tested Red Bone. Case Bowtie Shield. Complete with Gift Tin and Protective Pouch.154 CM is a very high carbon stainless steel with the addition of Molybdenum. Because 154 CM provides better edge retention than standard cutlery (stainless) steels, it is a good choice for blades that require heavier cutting applications. Very good edge holding ability Rockwell RC 60-61. Good toughness when double tempered (XX). Good corrosion resistance. (...)"
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Very nice David, thank you!

I just remembered this steel was much touchier with heat treat from my readings. Also I was thinking how abrading an edge is not the only way for an edge to dull. So abrasion resistance could be negated by chipping.

Thanks again,

As always you bring some of the best info to bladeforums.

Kevin
 
richstag said:
Very nice David, thank you!

I just remembered this steel was much touchier with heat treat from my readings. Also I was thinking how abrading an edge is not the only way for an edge to dull. So abrasion resistance could be negated by chipping.

Thanks again,

As always you bring some of the best info to bladeforums.

Kevin
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I think that's what the high Moly content brings to the table. The increased resistance to brittleness (i.e., chipping) afforded by the Molybdenum is, I think, one of the advantages of this steel. In terms of chemistry, ATS-34 is identical to 154CM; one characteristic I've noticed about ATS-34 is it's tenacious tendency to hang on to wire edges, even at RC levels above 58-60. That's basically the antithesis of 'brittle', it seems to me. VG10 is another steel with ~1% Molybdenum or slightly more, and it behaves in a similar manner, from what I've seen.

I'd bet whatever chipping issues might've been reported with 154CM, might've come about from someone getting a little too greedy for high RC, maybe beyond what even this steel is capable of. There were similar issues reported with D2 a few years ago; most of those turned out to be be bad or otherwise more extreme heat treat issues. There are also an abundance of anecdotal reports of 'chipping' on blade edges, many of which are more likely plastic deformations (dents) in the edge, as opposed to steel actually fracturing out of the blade. Not saying there weren't chipping issues sometimes, but actual chipping in blade edges is relatively rare in production knives, which seldom really 'push the envelope' in hardness anyway. Customs are another matter...
 
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Thanks for your thoughts on it David. Getting into the behavior of some of these steels usually goes way above my head. The discussions can become so dynamic, taking so many factors and variables into account. My way to judge a steel is to buy a knife, sharpen and use it :)

The reason I brought up the heat treat topic with this steel is I wondered how much of the problems were attributed to this. In Carl's place I mentioned putting a deer out of it's misery by placing my knife's blade through its skull. The blade was 154cm and there was NO chiping and the edge was still sharp.

Thanks for helping me understand it better :)

ETA, I also always wondered how much of the 'chipping' was actually people not understanding how to remove a burr and the burr being damaged.?

On the other hand, s30v can really feel gummy when grinding and sharpening and I had it chip on cardboard when my Damascus Case/Bose would not.

It really gets puzzling to me sometimes.
 
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richstag said:
Thanks for your thoughts on it David. Getting into the behavior of some of these steels usually goes way above my head. The discussions can become so dynamic, taking so many factors and variables into account. My way to judge a steel is to buy a knife, sharpen and use it :)

The reason I brought up the heat treat topic with this steel is I wondered how much of the problems were attributed to this. In Carl's place I mentioned putting a deer out of it's misery by placing my knife's blade through its skull. The blade was 154cm and there was NO chiping and the edge was still sharp.

Thanks for helping me understand it better :)
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Exactly. This is why I 'obsess' over this stuff, and sharpening in particular. Early on, I'd read a lot about how certain steels are supposed to behave, but never really 'understood' what that meant. But, over time, after re-bevelling so many knives from an accumulation of probably 300+ knives in many different steels, certain patterns & similarities start to show themselves between steels of similar chemistry, and the pieces of the 'jigsaw puzzle' start to just fall into place. That's where it really starts getting fun, when you start looking at the published chemistry and can somewhat predict what to expect when you go to sharpen it up, for the first time. That's also handy for figuring out what sharpening tools might work better than others (diamond, SiC, AlOx, etc.), for a given steel type. I still can't claim definitively that I actually know this stuff, in the academic sense, but I do feel like I've gotten a much better feel for it, than I had just a few years ago. And I'm still learning... :)

Edit:
"ETA, I also always wondered how much of the 'chipping' was actually people not understanding how to remove a burr and the burr being damaged.?

On the other hand, s30v can really feel gummy when grinding and sharpening and I had it chip on cardboard when my Damascus Case/Bose would not.

It really gets puzzling to me sometimes. "
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I missed this part of your earlier post, when replying.

I do believe (strongly) that burrs & wire edges account for a huge portion of reported 'dull' edges, whether they're reported as 'chipped', 'dinged', 'dented' or whatever. That's sort of an extension of the 'plastic deformation' issues I mentioned; the edge will bend, fold, dent or otherwise 'deform' like plastic, when subjected to stress or impacts or whatever. I went for years (& years) not understanding the effect or even the concept of a 'wire edge' on a blade, and so I have no doubt others go through it as well. A whole lot of my 'dull edge' issues went away permanently, when I finally figured out what was really wrong, and made an effort to clean the burrs & wires up.

S30V is still sort of an 'odd duck' for me. Lots of commentary in the Maint forum, about how it is known to have relatively large carbides which will 'tear out' of the surrounding steel matrix, and therefore leave voids in the edge. Whether this is actually 'chipping' or not, I don't know. But the end result is an edge which appears to be chipped (pieces of material missing). That's another steel which really seems to behave differently, depending on heat treat. I could see how it might seem 'gummy', as you describe, when grinding, at lower RC. As for the damascus Case/Bose, I don't know if it has the same abundance of (vanadium) carbides as S30V, but I'm betting it doesn't (S30V's vanadium content is HUGE). That might account for why it didn't seem to chip in the same way. Obviously lots of other variables too (chemistry & heat treat). Damascus steels often have more nickel content, which is what accounts for the 'bright' portions in the grain pattern of the damascus. Nickel is known to increase toughness and ductility (opposite of brittleness), so that might also play a part.
 
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Yeah, I was pretty obsessed over it for a while too. But it began to get way to expensive just to try every new steel. Im not really a collector so I basically settled on a few steels I like and just got back to using my knives and sticking to something I know works. Sharpening with a belt grinder you can feel differences in steel and pick up differences in burr removal, but it makes quick work of just about anything if you have good belts and compounds. The problem I find using my arkansas stones with steels with very hard carbides is the steel can actually cut the stone. Im not worried about my stones getting damaged, I am worried about how it DULLS the edges as it CUTS the stone :) Edge leading of course for this to occur.

I have a nice collection of DMT diamond bench stones but I found I could get great results by hand on sandpaper, convexing also.

Thanks for talking about it with me David. Its a pleasure.
 
Thanks David,

The damascus is 1075/nickel at Case's normal CV hardness. The S30v at CRK specs. 1075 is some tough stuff I believe, and at the lower RC level I guess it makes sense. Back when all the noise about S30v being junk I actually made a thread explaining my beliefs of it being from wire edges. I showed how I finished my edges and explained the lack of issues for the most part.

I too was very unaware of the wire edge when I was in my teens, but when I got my first 154 knife, the manufacturer actually makes it very clear to raise a burr, knock it off with a kissing graze and clean up the rest by stropping. :)
 
richstag said:
Thanks David,

The damascus is 1075/nickel at Case's normal CV hardness. The S30v at CRK specs. 1075 is some tough stuff I believe, and at the lower RC level I guess it makes sense. Back when all the noise about S30v being junk I actually made a thread explaining my beliefs of it being from wire edges. I showed how I finished my edges and explained the lack of issues for the most part.

I too was very unaware of the wire edge when I was in my teens, but when I got my first 154 knife, the manufacturer actually makes it very clear to raise a burr, knock it off with a kissing graze and clean up the rest by stropping. :)
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1075 composition (real basic stuff, similar to 1095, but with slightly less carbon; no vanadium, chromium or other major carbide-formers at all):
0.70 - 0.80% Carbon
0.40 - 0.70% Manganese
0.05% Sulphur
0.03% Phosphorus

If nickel is the only other addition for the damascus, I wouldn't see this steel having any issues with chipping, assuming the heat treat is anything close to normal.

Edit:
If it's 15N20 (per member 'MT Damascus' reply below):

(again, no major carbide-formers in this steel)
0.75% Carbon
2.0% Nickel
0.4% Manganese
0.3% Silicon
0.01% Sulphur
0.02% Phosphorus

The reference I'm looking at, lists 15N20 as 'bandsaw steel' (makes me think extreme toughness, flexibility; anything but brittle). I'd think that ought to be pretty (very) resistant to chipping issues. Or, at least, I'd certainly hope so. :)
 
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Kris,

PLEASE do not quote me on this. My info on the damascus came from a phone call with Devin Thomas (though Rob made it) and from a big wig at Case. A very kind gentleman, but it was over the phone months ago. I remember him saying some numbers along with nickel. What I retained was 1075/nickel heat treated to the mid 50's. I am sorry I don't remember better, especially since the man told me exactly what it is and so did Devin.

Kevin
 
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