Case Carbon Steel

yobbos1

yobbos1

Joined
Mar 29, 2002
Messages
2,342
I read somewhere that Case's CV blades were made by Camillus. If that's true, who's doing them now? Does anyone believe the quality of the steel will suffer for being made in a different facility? I know that sounds almost superstitious but those CV blades are pretty special IMHO.
 
I've come to the conclusion that everyone who really knows anything about Case steels has either been sworn to secrecy and placed in Witness Protection or is rooming with Jimmie Hoffa. I doubt that Camillus ever made Case blades, but stranger things have happened.
 
Wish I could find the post where I read this. If I'm wrong on this, then thats a good thing.:thumbup:
 
IIRC, I read in an article, or a post here on the forums, somewhere recently that Case's CV is actually 0170-6 (or is it 6C?) This is supposedly the steel (as Carbon V) that Camillus used for some of Cold Steel's knives that they made under contract for CS, until Camillus went under.

I don't know if Camillus made any of Case's blades, but the supplier of Camillus' 0170-6 (or 6C) could have supplied Case as well.

There's still some debate on it, but here's a link to another discussion:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3441492&postcount=112

thx - cpr
 
Carbon V was not just one formulation. It changed according to what was "available". This from a friend who was formerly employed at Camillus and was in a position to know.

From what I recall, 0170-6C is very similar to 50100b and is a good all around blade steel.

There have been allegations in the past (denied by Case) that it's CV was 50100b. I don't know that I've ever heard a definitive answer one way or the other. I don't recall ever hearing anything about Camillus producing their CV for them, however.
 
Camillus made knives for Case, so why not blades??
 
0170-6C = 50100b ~ CV ~ Carbon V ~ ...

I have long heard that 50100B = 1070-6. Basically, I understand this to be an "enhanced 1095." (enhanced by the addition of nickel, chromium, a bit of Vanadium). I have also “long heard” that this is what Case calls "CV" steel. (then again, any basic steel - like 1095 - with added chromium and vanadium is technically "CV steel" - just perhaps not the exact type of CV steel that is "Case CV steel"...)

Also, I recently found this:
0170-6 - 50100-B These are different designations for the same steel: 0170-6 is the steel makers classification, 50100-B is the AISI designation. A good chrome-vanadium steel that is somewhat similar to O-1, but much less expensive. The now-defunct Blackjack made several knives from O170-6, and Carbon V may be 0170-6. 50100 is basically 52100 with about 1/3 the chromium of 52100, and the B in 50100-B indicates that the steel has been modified with vanadium, making this a chrome-vanadium steel.
Click to expand...
http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

I don't know what/if any of this is fact. But most of it seems plausible.
 
orca8589 said:
IIRC, I read in an article, or a post here on the forums, somewhere recently that Case's CV is actually 0170-6 (or is it 6C?) This is supposedly the steel (as Carbon V) that Camillus used for some of Cold Steel's knives that they made under contract for CS, until Camillus went under.

I don't know if Camillus made any of Case's blades, but the supplier of Camillus' 0170-6 (or 6C) could have supplied Case as well.

There's still some debate on it, but here's a link to another discussion:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3441492&postcount=112

thx - cpr
Click to expand...

Supposedly, one massive melt of 01760C was made in the early 90s, and Ontario, Case and Camillus grabbed it. Hence, why the Case and Camillus blades are the same stuff.
 
Chromium and Vanadium are fairly common constituents of alloy steel. The Chromium is said to improve the structure and the tempered properties. The Vanadium is said to improve the grain structure (smaller grains, so the steel is stronger)

So saying that Case uses "CV steel" is only saying that they use a non-stainless alloy steel that contains Chromium and Vanadium and doesn't indicate exactly what else is in there nor how much carbon is there.

Ka-Bar uses 1095CV in their large blades.
SK5, now used by Cold steel is an alloy steel that contains both Chromium and Vanadium and has ~0.8% Carbon.

The idea that only one heat lot of CV steel was ever made just is not true.

So to get back on track, I don't know who makes Case blades. I had always assumed Case made their own from an alloy steel that they call "CV steel".
 
Blues said:
Carbon V was not just one formulation. It changed according to what was "available". This from a friend who was formerly employed at Camillus and was in a position to know.
Click to expand...

That's the second time I've read that Carbon V is "whatever was available".

Okay - a question for the scientific ones among us:
Is there a test that would indicate what steel each one is made of? I know that a member on the Himalayan Imports forum etched some blades to test for heat treatment - is there an etch test that might indicate the type of steel used on a Camillus made knife? (Certain alloys might have a reaction to acids - strong, mild, or none at all - that kind of thing.) I ask out of curiosity only, and as one pretty much uneducated in metallurgy.

I have a Camillus Becker BK7, and a Camillus-made Remington bullet Stockman, that are both supposedly made with 0170-6 steel. These two work very well, whatever the steel is, so I'm certainly not complaining; it's just one of those things that bug a knife knut at 2am when he can't sleep...

thx - cpr
 
An elemental analysis of the steel would tell what is in the blades. This is destructive however. Some labs will give you the closest commercial alloy match, and some leave it up to you to dig through, though what you get from a lab depends almost entirely on what you ask for.
 
Here is the best telling of the story of Carbon V that I have seen on the forums. I found it in a thread started by Guyon, but I think this poster was Phil Gibbs. I copied into a Word file and saved it (losing record of the poster and thread starter in the process, darn it).

Notice that there is no mention of Case in this at all. I have no direct knowledge, but I have a really hard time believing that there is any direct connection between Case CV steel and Carbon V.

Carbon V definately came first. It was the brainchild of the Metal God, Dan Maragni, & was, in my opinion, what put Cold Steel on the map all those years ago.

When Cold Steel came to Camillus to make their carbon steel knives, they did not want to pay for the vast amount of steel that had to be purchased in order to have a custom steel made to their specifications.
Consequently Cold Steel agreed that Camillus could also use the steel (& pay them a royalty, I believe) but could not call it Carbon V.

I came up with the name 0170-6C, based on an almost close (but NOT) steel produced by Sharron Steel called 0170-6.

All this is historical trivia.

The real issue for those who understand is Heat Treatment!

The reason that the Camillus Beckers perform so well is that Dan Maragni set up a system of heat treatment at Camillus for the Cold Steel knives, & oversaw almost every batch of knives produced. What we learnt about heat treating Cold Steel seeped over to the Becker knives.
All that is now lost forever!

In my humble opinion, the values of the Camillus Beckers may not rise significantly in the collector market, but for those interested in a high performance user, get them while you can. Without Maragni's methods, I don't care what a future maker of Beckers uses, they will just be well designed carbon steel knives covered in powder coat!​

I'll see if I can find the original thread, but I am not sanguine about so doing.
 
Frank, I think the only thing being overlooked in the telling is that at various times Carbon V was (apparently) different steels.

I bring this up again because this was mentioned to me directly (in person) by a former Camillus employee whom I know relatively well and who was in a position to know. (And who had no reason whatsoever to be deceptive during our discussion.)

Now, since there's no way for me to actually prove the truth of the statement you'll have to make your own judgement as to its veracity.
 
Yes, Elliott, I've heard the same thing about Carbon V being any of several alloys and I have no reason to doubt that to be true.

I think the thread I quoted was about one of the alloys used.
 
There is a test called the spark test. You grind the steel and look at the type shape color etc etc of the sparks. Some people say they can tell what kind of steel it is by that. I am not one of them.
 
there is such a thing as spectral analysis that can be done on steel, i don't know how it is done but it is based on looking at the spectrum of light of materials (all materials produce a different combo of optical spectrum components, like fingerprints) carefully to determine exactly what is in the steel (or any other material). i'm not sure but i don't think this is harmful at all to the knife (no grinding, breaking, etc).

there was a post in shoptalk the other day about it:
spectral analysis
 
siguy said:
there is such a thing as spectral analysis that can be done on steel, i don't know how it is done but it is based on looking at the spectrum of light of materials (all materials produce a different combo of optical spectrum components, like fingerprints) carefully to determine exactly what is in the steel (or any other material). i'm not sure but i don't think this is harmful at all to the knife (no grinding, breaking, etc).

there was a post in shoptalk the other day about it:
spectral analysis
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what non-destructive spectral analysis method he is talking about. We use X-ray spectroscopy in the metallurgy lab at work to get an idea of what is in an alloy. That will tell you what elements are in the steel and it is non-destructive. But the percentages are not typically reported accurately enough to ID a specific alloy. And you can get mislead by sample contamination REALLLY easily (happened to a sample I submitted is how I know, the answers from the machine were significantly off.)

The only methods I know of that are accurate enough to identify a specific alloy are destructive methods.



So anyway, back to Case CV steel. In the thread I referenced, Guyon quoted Phil Gibbs who worked at Camillus for a number of years. There was a link in that thread and I went back and read the original post that Phil Gibbs made. Phil Gibbs said that only Cold Steel and the Becker line made by Camillus had the CV alloy that was called Carbon V by Cold steel and 0170-6C by Camillus. He was in a position to know, so it looks like Case CV steel was another alloy.

So to get back to the original question, it does not appear that the closure of Camillus will directly impact Case CV blades.
 
I've done numerous tests that involved whittling hotdog sticks, opening soil bags in the garden, opening the mail, cutting up apples, opening the kids' new toys, trimming wayward branches in the garden and more, and my empirical evidence shows that Case's CV steel kicks azz! :p
 
Case makes their own carbon steel blades and heat treat them themselves, I have watched them do it. I pulled one out of a copperlock one time and it was a RC 59 which is pretty hard for a production pocket knife blade. I also had them CATRA test a cold steel muskrat with carbor V blade. The Case kicked ass. I hope this clears this matter up a little.
 
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