Case CV vs Victorinox steels

E

edmundo.gurza

Joined
May 15, 2013
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144
Rockwell, resistance, and overall personal experience.. what do you guys prefer and like for a user knife. Let say for example a Vic Alox Soldier and a Case Sodbuster CV.
 
Case Sodbuster CV (carbon/vanadium) is an excellent steel, but will rust. It will hold an edge longer than an SAK. On the other hand, the stainless grade used by Victorinox/Wenger (same company now) takes a very fine edge and holds it reasonably long. I've never had one rust. They are probably a bit softer than Case's CV and easy to sharpen. I could live with either.
 
I agree with Ed, the CV seems to hold an edge a bit longer. But both are very easy to sharpen back.
I prefer carbon steel, but..if humidity is high, and i go near water, which for me typically means in the water, i tend to lean towards my stainless friends.
 
I too have to agree with Ed. The Case CV is some very good stuff, and it will hold and edge a bit longer than the SAK stainless. But on the other hand. lots of knife nut blade snobs under estimate the SAK steel. It's not as bad as they make it out to be. But like the CV, it's very easy to sharpen up when it does loose it's cutting ability. Any old pocket stone or coffee mug will do. ''I actually prefer the more run of the mill steels, and like the way I can sharpen up anytime, and anywhere. Yes, the super steels will hold an edge longer, but when they do loose that edge, hpw hard is it to get it back?

The SAK steel, the CV, the 12c27 that Opinel and stainless mora's use, are good steels that cut well, and hold a good edge for a good amount of time, and are easy to shapren wit h very simple stones or other means. You can pick either CV or the SAK stainless like a Victorinox pioneer, and really go the rest of your lide with that pocket knife and not find them lacking in normal real world day to day use.

Slaying dragons, endless zombie armys, or surviving nuclear Armageddon, may call for a better steel.:D

Carl.
 
My experience with these steels might be best explained with beer. And ale. (We can talk about tea and coffee if that is better or red and white wines) Which is to say, there are big difference and smaller differences.

Most people can tell the difference between beer and ale (or tea and coffee). CV is considered to be a carbon steel. It has some vandium in it, hence the 'v'. Other carbon steels include 1095 (GEC, old USA Schrade and many others) and X90 (Opinel). This is tip of the ice berg. Victorinox INOX is a form of stainless. Huge number of forms of stainless and many more opinions about them. Carbon steel tends to take a fine edge, sharpens easily and is tough in that it usually resists chipping; all properties that have made it a traditional favorite for working knives. Stainless resists corrosion and the properties of the various forms of stainless vary wildly.

I'm still working my way around "tasting" different carbons. Haven't used Case CV yet but hope to. I can say that I can tell a difference between Opinel's X90 (which I believe is hardened around 55Rc) and old Schrade USA 1095 (which I believe to be hardened up in the 58Rc range). The Schrade 1095 takes a bit more time on the stones to sharpen and I picked up one used Schrade that had been badly treated with some noticeable chips in the edge. But, they hold their edge for a long time when working with wood. I can sharpen my Schrades down to 20 degrees/side with no edge folding. My Opinel Carbones (which I treat horribly) will not hold an edge as long and I've dented edges and folded edges but never ever chipped an edge. My sense is this is primarily the difference in hardness. Not sure where Case CV is hardened to, or GEC for that matter. This thread suggests mid 50s for current Case CV and around 58Rc for GEC 1095.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/740432-Case-CV-Has-it-changed


I have stronger feelings about Victorinox INOX. I think its only hardened in the 53-55Rc range. Some find it easy to sharpen but I find it forms a burr so easily that it's hard to get rid of the "wire edge" that forms. I'm unimpressed with its edge hold too. I like it worse than Case's SS (reported to be 420HC at 55Rc) and like Case SS noticeably less well than Bucks 420HC (58Rc). Just starting to play with Opinel's Inox (Sandvic) and so far it feels very similar to Bucks 420HC. Buck's old 440C is another animal all together.

Notice, btw, that we're starting to get into discussions that sound very much like differences among IPAs (or coffees).

A reasonable approach here is to pick a knife you like and don't worry about it.

Or, if you want to worry, lot's of good reading here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/368828-Steel-FAQ
 
Either CV or Vic's inox will take very fine edges, so both appear to be very fine-grained steels. The Victorinox inox stainless is, however, the 'softest' stainless I've seen in a production knife (outside of some very basic kitchen knives, which can be very similar). The softness of the Vic stainless makes it a little quirky when sharpening, as it's vulnerable to burring or forming wire edges very easily, if pressure is too heavy. Especially on ceramic hones.

I recently purchased two CV knives from Case (6375 stockman, and a 6220 Peanut). I've thinned and otherwise re-bevelled the clip blade on both of them, as well as the pen on the Peanut, and the sheepsfoot on the stockman. Between the thinning and other fine-tuning, these are maybe the 2nd-most wicked-sharp edges I've done (my Schrade 8OT's 1095 blades are the only ones better). Very, very easy to maintain in that condition as well. The CV's only downside is the vulnerability to rusting; I've noticed the blades have been spotting a bit in recent weeks. I still haven't forced a patina on them yet, but likely will soon. My 8OT's clip blade was patina'd some time back, and has been resisting the spotting more effectively than the other two blades in the same knife. So I think I'll be dipping them in some hot vinegar/water mix soon, as well.


David
 
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pinnah said:
My experience with these steels might be best explained with beer. And ale. (We can talk about tea and coffee if that is better or red and white wines) Which is to say, there are big difference and smaller differences.

Most people can tell the difference between beer and ale (or tea and coffee). CV is considered to be a carbon steel. It has some vandium in it, hence the 'v'. Other carbon steels include 1095 (GEC, old USA Schrade and many others) and X90 (Opinel). This is tip of the ice berg. Victorinox INOX is a form of stainless. Huge number of forms of stainless and many more opinions about them. Carbon steel tends to take a fine edge, sharpens easily and is tough in that it usually resists chipping; all properties that have made it a traditional favorite for working knives. Stainless resists corrosion and the properties of the various forms of stainless vary wildly.

I'm still working my way around "tasting" different carbons. Haven't used Case CV yet but hope to. I can say that I can tell a difference between Opinel's X90 (which I believe is hardened around 55Rc) and old Schrade USA 1095 (which I believe to be hardened up in the 58Rc range). The Schrade 1095 takes a bit more time on the stones to sharpen and I picked up one used Schrade that had been badly treated with some noticeable chips in the edge. But, they hold their edge for a long time when working with wood. I can sharpen my Schrades down to 20 degrees/side with no edge folding. My Opinel Carbones (which I treat horribly) will not hold an edge as long and I've dented edges and folded edges but never ever chipped an edge. My sense is this is primarily the difference in hardness. Not sure where Case CV is hardened to, or GEC for that matter. This thread suggests mid 50s for current Case CV and around 58Rc for GEC 1095.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/740432-Case-CV-Has-it-changed


I have stronger feelings about Victorinox INOX. I think its only hardened in the 53-55Rc range. Some find it easy to sharpen but I find it forms a burr so easily that it's hard to get rid of the "wire edge" that forms. I'm unimpressed with its edge hold too. I like it worse than Case's SS (reported to be 420HC at 55Rc) and like Case SS noticeably less well than Bucks 420HC (58Rc). Just starting to play with Opinel's Inox (Sandvic) and so far it feels very similar to Bucks 420HC. Buck's old 440C is another animal all together.

Notice, btw, that we're starting to get into discussions that sound very much like differences among IPAs (or coffees).

A reasonable approach here is to pick a knife you like and don't worry about it.

Or, if you want to worry, lot's of good reading here.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/368828-Steel-FAQ
Click to expand...

Well written. I like your style. :D

One thing if I may... Opinel carbone is XC90 (equivalent aisi 1086). X90, I believe, is a stainless steel.
 
Interesting thread, thanks for the info. So it sounds like good ole 1095 is pretty hard to beat for a general purpose working knife?
 
A little off topic.
I have found my new SAK (1 yr old) sharpens much better than my 25 yr old model. They might have upped the hardness, maybe.
By better, I mean less burr, better edge holding.
 
I find Case CV to be a harder steel. It also forms a patina, which may or may not suit you. Victorinox steel is pretty maintenance free, and is still serviceable, despite being softer. I have no problem getting my SAK sharp using pretty basic tools.
 
Strigamort said:
Well written. I like your style. :D

One thing if I may... Opinel carbone is XC90 (equivalent aisi 1086). X90, I believe, is a stainless steel.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words and the correction.

Question... should I expect other 1085 steels like that used by Condor to feel the same as XC90?


arizonaranchman said:
Interesting thread, thanks for the info. So it sounds like good ole 1095 is pretty hard to beat for a general purpose working knife?
Click to expand...

I agree with this but would add that there are stainless steels that are also hard to beat for a general purpose working knife.

I like to over-simplify. Towards this end, I think of steels as being on a spectrum from easy to sharpen to holds an well. Hardness is a part of that, but just a part. In my mind, "general purpose working knife" means a) the knife will get used and b) the user will do the basics in terms of sharpening.

IME, carbon steels tend to strike a nice balance between ease of sharpening, toughness and edge hold. But I would say the same thing about stainless like 420HC and Sandvik 12c27 (Opinel's INOX, which I'm gaining some experience with).

My sense is that there is a bigger difference in the feel of steels among stainless. Some stainless is super soft and won't hold an edge well and other stainless is very hard to sharpen but holds an edge better. For example, Buck's 440C is noticeably harder to sharpen (not impossible, just harder) and holds an edge noticeably longer. I know a guy online who uses old Bucks for scraping industrial electrical lines. That makes sense. Very abrasive work demanding more abrasion resistance than 1095 (or 1085) or 420HC can give.

Note, if a person isn't willing to do basic sharpening, I'm not sure any of this matters.

Last thing to say on this... using metallurgy to compare carbon steel to stainless is sort like using chemistry to compare beer and ale (or tea and coffee). Yes, it affords some insight but it doesn't tell the whole story. Patina on carbon steel evokes deep memories of old knives in my pocket and the kitchen drawers of my forefathers and no stainless does that for me. On the other hand, stainless gives me peace of mind against corrosion and I know I can store a knife in wet conditions and pull it out later in perfect shape.

Taste both and follow your taste.
 
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I thought SAK steel was pretty close to 12C27, if not it. I think overall I prefer these type steels to the super steels. I can get SAKs and Cases (ss and cv) and 1095 wicked sharp pretty easily and I guess I don't use em hard enough to have to repeat often enough to worry about it. I guess it is because I enjoy sharpening. I haven't gotten to the point of appreciable material loss or my mind would change or if i processed game.
 
pinnah, I love your use of paralleling carbon and stainless to IPAs or coffees. I would probably enjoy putting back a few tasty IPAs and talking steel with you. Sounds like good times. :thumbup:

I am very curious about the case CV steel. I have yet to try it out.
 
MarkPinTx said:
I thought SAK steel was pretty close to 12C27, if not it. I think overall I prefer these type steels to the super steels. I can get SAKs and Cases (ss and cv) and 1095 wicked sharp pretty easily and I guess I don't use em hard enough to have to repeat often enough to worry about it. I guess it is because I enjoy sharpening. I haven't gotten to the point of appreciable material loss or my mind would change or if i processed game.
Click to expand...

Yeh, that's my sense too. Here are two interesting posts from an old thread on the subject.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...inox-use-on-their-sak-s?p=5073231#post5073231

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...inox-use-on-their-sak-s?p=5077006#post5077006

And a link claiming to report from Victorinox directly
http://www.pizzini.at/info_sak_engl.htm#Steelinfo

I sharpened up my new Opinel Inox last night and it sharpened up very much like Buck 420HC. Both are reported to be 58Rc or there about. Easy to work up to a burr (I use a Lansky with normal stones) and roughly comparable to carbon in terms of getting rid of the burr (just a bit harder).

SAKs I sharpen are like Case SS (420HC) in terms of holding the burr during sharpening. They also loose their edge faster than Buck's 420HC. Spent last night working on some wood with the Opinel and it seems to hold an edge like Buck 420HC too. Time will tell.
 
The Case CV is pretty good stuff and everyone has given really great details about sharpness, ease of sharpening, edge holding, etc., so I'll comment on their stain/rust resistance.

Case CV will definitely patina and rust, but I don't think it's as difficult to prevent as some make it sound. I rarely use my pocket knives to cut up food, only if I'm somewhere with no other knife available and something just has to be cut up. So take that into consideration. I carried a Case medium stockman in CV daily, without fail from when I was about 15 up until age 25 or so. During that time I lived in West Tennessee and St. Louis, MO, both hot and humid places. I didn't think much of wiping, oiling it back then and it has a few patina spots, but not a lot. I used it for whatever, sweated, probably spilled beer on myself and who knows what else during those years:



The Victorinox steel on the other hand is pretty much impossible to get it to rust. I have an Executive that went through the same sort of abuse for years. If you rust the blades on a Victorinox SAK, you've really done something.
 
The quoted text below is straight from Victorinox's FAQ page (also linked here):

http://www.victorinox.com/us/content/customerSupportVictorinoxSwissArmyKnives

"Q. What is the makeup of steel?
A. All Victorinox knives are high carbon, stainless, first grade, A-quality stainless steel, x 50 CrMo. They are tempered to a 55-56 HRC hardness for optimum edge retention."
Click to expand...

This is the elemental makeup of X50CrMoV15 (as listed here -->: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml ):

Carbon = 0.50%
Chromium = 14.50%
Molybdenum = 0.65%
Vanadium = 0.15%
Manganese = 1.00%
Silicon = 1.00%

Elementally quite similar to the 12C27Mod stainless in Opinels, and higher chromium content than 420HC (more 'stainless' than 420HC, and might also explain the pronounced burring & wire edge issues, at lower hardness). Sandvik's 12C27Mod was developed/tweaked from their original 12C27, by slightly decreasing carbon content and increasing chromium, to add corrosion resistance for kitchen cutlery.


David
 
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Flint Hills said:
(...)The Victorinox steel on the other hand is pretty much impossible to get it to rust. I have an Executive that went through the same sort of abuse for years. If you rust the blades on a Victorinox SAK, you've really done something.
Click to expand...

Guess this makes me special. :D

I managed to rust one of mine, after leaving it in a toolbox in the covered bed of my pickup for a couple years or more (in central Texas). I'd completely forgotten it was ever in there. The blades & tools were stuck shut with rust; had to soak it in WD-40 for 3-4 days to loosen it up, before I could finish cleaning it up. It's visibly pitted now, and some of the implements still won't snap shut on their own, but my Vic is at least functional again. :)


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Guess this makes me special. :D

I managed to rust one of mine, after leaving it in a toolbox in the covered bed of my pickup for a couple years or more (in central Texas). I'd completely forgotten it was ever in there. The blades & tools were stuck shut with rust; had to soak it in WD-40 for 3-4 days to loosen it up, before I could finish cleaning it up. It's visibly pitted now, and some of the implements still won't snap shut on their own, but my Vic is at least functional again. :)


David
Click to expand...

LOL! :D I guess leaving it outside for a few years will do it!
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
This info, and the quoted text below, is straight from Victorinox's FAQ page (linked below):

http://www.victorinox.com/us/content/customerSupportVictorinoxSwissArmyKnives



This is the elemental makeup of X50CrMoV15 (as listed here -->: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml ):

Carbon = 0.50%
Chromium = 14.50%
Molybdenum = 0.65%
Vanadium = 0.15%
Manganese = 1.00%
Silicon = 1.00%

Elementally quite similar to the 12C27Mod stainless in Opinels, and higher chromium content than 420HC (might explain the pronounced burring & wire edge issues, at lower hardness).


David
Click to expand...

Super helpful. Thanks! Interesting thought about the Chromium and burring at low Rc levels. I notice more of a difference between Vic's Inox and Case SS than I do between Opinel's Inox and Buck's 420HC. Weird.
 
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