case hardend or not?

S

Sharp_newbie

Joined
Aug 12, 2007
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701
i recently started my first project out of an old file i found lying around the shop. I'm not too sure of quality of the steel and i am reading a lot about case hardening and that a lot of file makers use this technique for a quality file for relatively cheap (or something along those lines)
regardless, i was wondering if anyone knows how to test a piece of steel so i can know if it just case hardened steel or good quality steel...

or any tell tale signs of case hardening.

i realize that a file is not the ideal workable material for a knife, but a man has to work with what he is given.

the file had the markings H F and under that was Brazil... i cant seem to find a company that starts with H F and i also assume that the file comes from brazil (they dont call me sharp for nothing hahaha) but maybe im wrong and one of you out there knows something on the file

just putting it out there thanks
 
either forge out a section then quench it. then clamp the quench section in a vise and see if it breaks cleanly . Or you can try grinding into thr flat rather deeply then etch the grind area. if it is case hardened you will see a ring around the grind area.
 
Make a knife out of it, spending many, many hours of hard work.
Find out that the knife won't hold an edge worth cr@p.
They won't call you DULL for nothing.

(This is exactly why I never recommend starting knifemaking with "found" materials of unknown composition.)

Seriously, the simple tests for carbon steel (still a guess as to what it is,though), is to heat a piece of it up to a little above non-magnetic and quench it. Stick the end in a vise and try to bend it. If it immediately breaks like glass, it most likely has enough carbon for a blade.If it bends any at all, it is no good.Try to file the broken end with a good file. If it is too hard to file it will harden enough for a blade. Look at the break. If it is smooth and frosty looking, that's good. If it is is lumpy and zig-zag, that is not.

Finally - Who said files aren't good for making knives ! I use one to make every knife I make. BUT, I use it to file the good steel that I know how to HT. If a mans got to work with what he has, let the first thing he works with be his brain.
Stacy
 
well thanks for the sound advise stacy, i see that time has made you wise and a master at your knife making. i also thank you for making me feel small and useless at my attempts to just sharpen a piece of metal and put my name on it. but hey if thats a privilege given to master knife makers (to come on the forum and shoot arrogant, belittling comments to all the newbies that are trying something new) then wow i cant wait to be up there with you.

maybe next time just don't respond... i realize there is alot of things that i am doing wrong, but hey... this is just a hobby its not my life, and i am rather new about it and a bit anxious to just have made something. but you would not know anything about that would you stacy, im sure your first knife won tons of awards for the most excellent knife conceived designed constructed, and it was so sharp it could slice a lama in half. and you did it all by yourself on a cold afternoon.

so thanks again arrogance is always welcome here old man.
 
Sharp Newbie
If my post insulted you ,I apologize. It was intended as light hearted and to pick up on your own joke of "They don't call me sharp for nothing". and your thoughts on using what you have. It was not intended to belittle or abuse you.

The advise on not using a file or other unknown item is not specific to you, and has been repeated on this forum thousands of times.

I will offer to you what I offer to many new makers. Send me your shipping address and I will send you a piece of 1084 and a piece of stabilized handle material to make your first knife out of. If you can't HT it yourself, and have no contacts locally, I'll do the HT ,too. All of this is at no charge. All I ask is that you research the process. make a plan. And do the best you can with the tools you have. I always say the best tool anyone has is his brain. It allows a maker in Africa to use a rock and a charcoal file, and it allows Kevin Cashen to use a press and a salt pot. Very different processes, but fostered by mental planning and ingenuity. End result is the same- The best knife they can make with the tools at hand.

Please accept my apology if I came off as insulting, and send me your shipping address.Also the size knife you plan on making.
Stacy
 
Stacy,

I had to go back and re-read what could possibly have been so offensive, but I saw nothing that would have offended me. And you didn't get bent out of shape in response, a lot of people would. That's classy.

Sharp,

Shake the sand out of your mangina man. Nobody here is picking on you (yet), Stacy was offering well intentioned advice and is a respected contributor here.

To answer your original question. You can grind down a corner of the file deep enough to go through any case hardening (if present) and punch it with a center punch or similar. If it is case hardened it will dent, if it is solid tool steel it will be too hard to dent. Be aware the tang end of a file is typically soft, so you'll need to do the working end.

It will be challenging to grind a file into a blade without accidently overheating a spot and loosing your temper. That steel is very hard, it isn't easy to grind, and the temper is very low, you don't have to get it very hot to mess it up. So a lot of folks who make knives out of files anneal them first to make them easier to work and re-harden them. Though for the bother you could get a piece of tool steel to start with and save yourself some frustration, which is what Stacy was getting at. Tool steel such as 1095 or W1 is inexpensive and fairly easy to obtain.

OTOH, my first knife was a file knife too. Ground it on a 6" bench grinder over twenty years ago.

Good luck. Take picts.
 
Relax, it is all good here. Plenty of good people. A bit of kidding and rib jabbing at times and a lot of good guys willing to give freely of good advice, time, etc. The discussion on files and other salvaged steels was going on when I showed up a couple years ago and I am sure it was old then. I too have made some file knives. I do use files from a know file maker. It doesn't hurt to experiment and learn. But, the more I learn the more I see why know quality of material is important to make great knives. He was just pointing out that for a few bucks you can have a known quality steel so that when you put out ll the effort to make that knife you end up with a good one. Jim
 
okay...

I will apologize to you stacy for the tirade that i went on. after reading your message again i realized that you where just having fun. the message was sent on a bad morning after a 20 hour shift. i did not read the information you where trying to pass on and took your (very) subtle jokes a lot harder then i should have. i see now that you where just trying to help. so for my hissy fit, i do apologize. thank you for the advise (and it turns out that the file is good hard steel.)

in the future i will read the message, get the meaning then decide whether to get all bent out of shape or laugh at what was actually a pretty decent pun.

and thank you for the offer of good steel but i will use this piece i have and then go find a supplier for the next one. (the reason i was using the old file was because i was not too sure i have it in me to make a knife... but its coming along great and so next time i will go find some good material.)

sorry for the old man bit...

** pics coming as soon as i can locate my camera to computer cord...**
 
Apology Accepted.
We all have misreadings on this forum. No harm/no foul.

My offer still stands (for your second attempt,now) of a piece of 1084 and some stabilized handle material. Just send me your shipping address.

Keep us all posted, and don't hesitate to ask questions. Every one of us was a newbie at one time.It is my feeling that the learning curve is greatly shortened by being here at Shop Talk.

The other good news, is that you have now plunged in and gotten baptized. Heck in a year you may be one of the "Old Timers". (And BTW, I am an old man ,compared to many of the younger folks here. Doesn't bother me.)

Looking forward to seeing the progress.
Take Care - Stacy
 
well then stacy, perhaps i will take up your offer for the steel and wood. do you have an email address i can send my info to?
 
Hey Stacy, if you're just dying to get rid of a perfectly good piece of steel and some (hopefully expensive and exotic) stabilized handle material, I'd be glad to take it off your hands. :D Heck, cause I'm feeling generous, I'll even pay you for your shipping costs! :D ;)

On a serious note, really classy to hold composure on this thread, and as always, over the top generosity and willingness to help. Guys like you make this craft rewarding and really help advance the art/science of the knife.

**pats on the back all around**

--nathan
 
I know i am in company of more skilled folkes than me. That is why i am here! Yes I have blown black out my nose for a long time and had my wife come and screem about a stream of sparks down to my boot! This is why we are here! Working steel! We are all children to some at this site! Enjoy it!
 
Sharp- Look up Ranger Original (Rob Ridley- Rob! on here) for some good steel. He is a local guy (Cremona) and is great to deal with!!
 
Sharp newbie:
If you click on a forumites name (on any post) it will open an options window. You can select to see their profile, send a PM, send and email, etc. If it isn't working for you ( not sure if registered users have this), it is sapelt@cox.net .Tell me what kind/size of knife you want to make. Handle type,etc.
Stacy
 
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