Case using 1095?

JohnDF said:
Yes, like I said it's typical Case quality... not perfect but still very usable.
The retailer, although big, doesn't seem to care a whole lot. So I'm not surprised by the pictures.
I would also like to see other cover materials. Like i said, I'm not super happy with the Micarta they used on this run.
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I agree, i handled one at SMKW and thought the scales felt very plastic-ey so I was disappointed. Also was bummed that it says PILOT TEST RUN in giant letters on the clip blade. Why did they do that?!
 
Modoc ED said:
Good man John. Thanks. I didn't doubt you - just wanted to see it in black and white. Oh, watch how you carry that thing in your front pockets. Heed the Prop. 65 warning. Could alter your ballance.
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JohnDF said:
Good thing I don't plan on any more kids... 🤣
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That stuff is only dangerous in California. Outside the state's borders you have nothing to worry about.

Hold on a sec, I'm in California.

😳
 
jc57 said:
Some worthwhile tidbits in the comment section on Case CV steel on the Zknives steel comparison web site: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/case_cv.shtml

Basically says it used to be based on 1095 and then later was based on 1086, with some Chromium and Vanadium added.

Here is the comparison chart of the three:


Straight up AISI 1095 will have a little more carbon and no Chromium or Vanadium.
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I added the following text to my earlier post as well. But here are some details as to what Case's own staff posted on their own forum as recently as 2013:

Specific affirmations made, about their CV steel being based on 1095, were made in at least two posts from their own staff: one by CCC admin, the other by the company historian with engineering input, on the Case Collectors Club (CCC) forum. One post was dated from 2005, the other from 2013.

I'm a CCC member myself and went looking for this info on their CCC forum a while back to satisfy my own curiosity.

Two excerpts from a post there by the CCC Admin, dated from 2005:
"The steel used at Case is made from the following grades: Surgical Stainless Steel (SS) is 420 HC (high carbon) and CV is modified 1095."
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"All steels used at Case are heat treated and double tempered with our CV being several points higher on the Rockwell C scale."
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Two excerpts from another single post by Case staff (company historian) in 2013:
"The steel has remained the same throughout the years. We have a vendor that actually was familiar with the steel properties that we used as far back as the 60s and 70s, of which it is the same."
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"It is a 1095 carbon steel. Although today we call it Chrome Vanadium, it is one in the same."
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Got my 1095 Case trapper today, sorry no pics yet. Usual Case, minor gap at backspring and liner, blades not centered well, significant burr. Good things I've noticed on mine though are the tip of the clip blade isn't rounded and actually comes to an acute tip, and both blades open fully straight and in line with the back in other words they don't stop at an odd angle to the handle. As to the scales I really like the burlap micarta it looks great, feels good in the hand to me and think that it fits perfectly on traditional patterns.
 
Received mine in the mail today. Great to see Case innovating with new stuff.
Impressed with fit and finish. Both blades nicely centered in the blade well. Love the oval sheild.

IACoM1C.jpg


A home run for Case and SMKW.
 
Can't really get excited about this, don't see 1095 as a big 'innovation' particularly as their existing carbon blades- cv- are perfectly acceptable and I haven't found GEC's 1095 to have better edge retention than CASE cv. Still, it is something different.
 
I like the 1095 because I know what it is. I’ve read before that their “CV” is proprietary, and at one time based on 1095-ish. I’ve also read that they’ve changed the recipe a few times, and not necessarily for the better. The proprietary bit gives them the latitude to do so, or so I’ve read.

Either way, I don’t feel Case’s CV is special enough to warrant a “proprietary” protection: I’d prefer to know exactly what we’re dealing with for average steels. What I didn’t care for was the pictures with the blade tips that seemingly touch the liners. It’s honest, but I was hoping these might get special attention.
 
EngrSorenson said:
I like the 1095 because I know what it is. I’ve read before that their “CV” is proprietary, and at one time based on 1095-ish. I’ve also read that they’ve changed the recipe a few times, and not necessarily for the better. The proprietary bit gives them the latitude to do so, or so I’ve read.

Either way, I don’t feel Case’s CV is special enough to warrant a “proprietary” protection: I’d prefer to know exactly what we’re dealing with for average steels. What I didn’t care for was the pictures with the blade tips that seemingly touch the liners. It’s honest, but I was hoping these might get special attention.
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Not to mention other manufacturers but I’ve had many from a very popular brand here on blade forums that blades were not centered and rubbing or very close to. I see no more or less with Case .Also every back lock blade I received from the not mentioned had blade rock and everyone I received from case had none.
I know the trapper is not a back lock but I’m
Just saying :)
 
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EngrSorenson said:
I like the 1095 because I know what it is. I’ve read before that their “CV” is proprietary, and at one time based on 1095-ish. I’ve also read that they’ve changed the recipe a few times, and not necessarily for the better. The proprietary bit gives them the latitude to do so, or so I’ve read.

Either way, I don’t feel Case’s CV is special enough to warrant a “proprietary” protection: I’d prefer to know exactly what we’re dealing with for average steels. What I didn’t care for was the pictures with the blade tips that seemingly touch the liners. It’s honest, but I was hoping these might get special attention.
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Mine came in Saturday...It's got many of the aforementioned discrepancies NO Deal Breakers...as for the 1095 and "CV" versions of blade steels Both Chromium and Vanadium are used extensively in Steels. Chromium helps existing carbides become harder, and Vanadium Stabilizes the steel at high temperature hardening which reduces Grain Growth both very admirable attributes in Knife Steels.

Becker and Ka-Bar both advertise their 1095 as "1095 Cro-Van"....So the Case "CV" is merely saying we've upped the quality of 1095 "Tool Steel". Advertising "Jargon" to entice buyers....Any steel can be proprietary based on the Buyers specific recipe of the Smelted elements for their needs. Trade Secrets of Big Companies prevents industrial espionage.
 
Busto said:
Mine came in Saturday...It's got many of the aforementioned discrepancies NO Deal Breakers...as for the 1095 and "CV" versions of blade steels Both Chromium and Vanadium are used extensively in Steels. Chromium helps existing carbides become harder, and Vanadium Stabilizes the steel at high temperature hardening which reduces Grain Growth both very admirable attributes in Knife Steels.

Becker and Ka-Bar both advertise their 1095 as "1095 Cro-Van"....So the Case "CV" is merely saying we've upped the quality of 1095 "Tool Steel". Advertising "Jargon" to entice buyers....Any steel can be proprietary based on the Buyers specific recipe of the Smelted elements for their needs. Trade Secrets of Big Companies prevents industrial espionage.
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I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at regarding the steel, but just let me say it would be incorrect to say that 1095 steel is the same as 1095 Cro-Van steel, because true 1095 is made up of iron and carbon (& other trace elements). Case's CV doesn't guarantee anything except that there's Iron, Carbon, Chromium and Vanadium, and we'll never know to what degree each is present, and furthermore that 'recipe' can change without notice.

My point was merely that when Case says "1095", I should hope they mean the very specific steel which is "1095" and not their mystery meat composition.

Here's a post from knarfeng knarfeng that I appreciated on the subject, which demonstrates clues to the changes:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/case-cv-has-it-changed.740432/post-8201245
 
EngrSorenson said:
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at regarding the steel, but just let me say it would be incorrect to say that 1095 steel is the same as 1095 Cro-Van steel, because true 1095 is made up of iron and carbon (& other trace elements). Case's CV doesn't guarantee anything except that there's Iron, Carbon, Chromium and Vanadium, and we'll never know to what degree each is present, and furthermore that 'recipe' can change without notice.

My point was merely that when Case says "1095", I should hope they mean the very specific steel which is "1095" and not their mystery meat composition.

Here's a post from knarfeng knarfeng that I appreciated on the subject, which demonstrates clues to the changes:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/case-cv-has-it-changed.740432/post-8201245
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The point is that 1095 is BASIC tool steel with trace alloys and some mystery gunk that was in a car frame or nails whatever was smelted and then poured. Each Mill producing ensures a 0.95-1.0% Carbon which is the basis for the "Designated 1095" nomenclature. It's an OK steel, but by most standards of the Key knife manufacturers not as good as it could be by adding the alloys. If you are buying a knife with bare minimum 1095 at low hardness for a High Price are you being short changed by that Maker? When Knives started to evolve so did the buying public wanting a Better Quality Steel. Enter the Makers seeking better Alloyed Steel to produce a Better product for the end user. Playing with Recipes is how Steel Got Better, and isn't that what we want in the end?

As a Knife maker I want to ensure a Quality product with no "Fishy" hidden blade characteristics in the steel....I don't know if GEC's 1095 is any better or worse than Case's 1095 or their CV....It's all proprietary to each company and from whom they order their steel.

It's like comparing "White Bread to White Bread" all the Bakers use White Flour as a Base, but the other ingredients added are what separate the Bakeries.
 
I've previously thought of it in such terms and liked the 'bakery' comparison, in thinking of the factors influencing what makes the difference in a blade (or bread/pastry) as a finished product. There's the basic 'recipe' of ingredients themselves and the proportions, quality and purity thereof. And then there's also the 'baking recipe', which I liken to the heat treat itself, i.e., how hot for how long, stability & accuracy of temperature controls, etc.

Probably my most favorite AND least favorite examples of traditional production knife steels were both in so-named '1095' steel. My favorite is from Schrade USA's older blades, which I consider the benchmark for 1095. Great edge retention and an impresssive springy temper of their very thin blades, even at hardness near/above 60 HRC. And the most horrid example was from another production maker (to remain unnamed), on which the basic 'recipes' seemed to go astray in a very bad way. The persistent wire edge on that blade was so flimsy, I could actually make it fold under pressure from the edge of my thumbnail. Never could get rid of that wire edge. Whether it was bad heat treat initially, or heat damage during factory grinding after the fact, or just poor quality steel, I'll never know. But in the end, it was just really bad and I stopped worrying about why and put the knife away for good.

I've liked Case's CV blades in the examples I have, dating anywhere from about 1965 through 2014 or so. They all take a great, hair-popping edge and hold it well, and they're very easy to sharpen up and maintain that way with the most basic of sharpening gear. So, in the end with Case, I don't worry as much about what they're actually calling their steel. More importantly, I can see they've been making good production decisions over many decades' time about what they're doing to make the most of their steel of choice, whatever it may be.
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
the basic 'recipes' seemed to go astray in a very bad way
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This can Happen^^^The companies are at the mercy of the steel mill and it requires a constant monitoring of "Heat Treat" protocols. When you receive a new knife is there a "LOT NUMBER" more than likely because it's used to Track the Steel LOT and Heat Treat LOT. It doesn't take much for things to get sideways and have a Negative Reflection on a Company as you noted with the company to not be named.

1095 is Tricky because it's a "Shallow Hardening" tool Steel doesn't take much to ruin in knife application.
 
Busto said:
The point is that 1095 is BASIC tool steel with trace alloys and some mystery gunk that was in a car frame or nails whatever was smelted and then poured. Each Mill producing ensures a 0.95-1.0% Carbon which is the basis for the "Designated 1095" nomenclature.
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I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not sure I made my position clear, so bear with me. Would you agree that 1095 has a very specific AISI standard for what constitutes 1095 and that Case has no such standard? If we can agree to that then I think we'll find ourselves in violent agreement.

Having used both Case's CV and GEC's 1095 I can't tell much of a difference between them; at least not sufficiently enough that I can't be sure it's not in my head. In my head I feel like I've had better experiences with 1095, but compared to S35VN I'd say they're practically identical. I'd expect Case's 1095 to be very much similar.

Given the choice between two practically identical steels, I prefer the known quantity, which is currently the only reason this SMKW offering is enticing (IMO). I'm very happy to hear that your knife arrived with no deal breakers, which is that crucial first step these days with Case :). Compare the 1095 to CV though, and definitely get back to me with your opinion.
 
Lesknife said:
In my search for what case uses I’ve never found or got a solid answer from a case rep or company information data sheet to verify their steel they use. I’ve read where some were quoted as saying it was a mod 1095 with some chrome and vanadium. Another one said it was 1085 plus cv. Yet another one said they had various types depending on the supplier. But they never offer a data sheet / spec sheet to show the elements and percentages that makeup their steel as other manufacturers do. The same with their surgical steel, true sharp ss.
If they are actually using 1095 or 1095cv why don’t they show the specs on it? Along with the heat treatment and hrc ?
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Your statement "they had various types depending on the supplier" is probably the key to why Case uses marketing terms to describe their steels, and not the actual technical description.

It is obvious Case puts out bids to subcontractors and is looking for the lowest price response. I am going to claim Case is not interested in chasing steel fads, nor does their customer base really care. Case knife customers tend to be people who buy the things for collecting, not for using. As long as it is sharp out of the box, well made, looks good, the customer is happy and will buy another pretty knife when the handle materials change.
 
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