Celluloid Knife Handle Deterioration (Out Gassing)

herder

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Sorry if this has been covered before, but in light of some talk about celluloid knife handle deterioration on another post, this might be a good topic to re-approach.

Celluloid type thermoplastics were developed in the mid 1800s and were commonly used as a knife handle material from the late 1800s to around the mid 1900s. (and again later on) Celluloid in clear form was perfect for use in "picture" handled knives from early cutlery companies such as "Novelty", "Canton", and "Aerial", who put actual film pictures under the clear cell handles. Color was also added to to produce single and multi-colored handles. It's common knowledge that clear or light colored celluloid handles are the ones most likely to go bad BUT, dark colored cell handles can also deteriorate. Celluloid was initially a good material for knife handles which could easily be formed under a heat process and were relatively strong once finished. But, no one knew at the time that much of the celluloid used for a variety of purposes would eventually deteriorate and produce an acidic gas in the process.

Enclosed are pictures of a knife from the well respected German firm of "J. A. Henckels" which shows the classic signature of celluloid deterioration (out gassing). What's sadly interesting about this knife is that it can be seen just where the problem has started, which is under the handle and near the blade end. The top nickel silver bolsters and shield have discolored noticeably, and the back springs nearest the blades have started to red rust. The blades have fared better but still show rust areas. This Henckels knife was purchased many years ago in fine condition, but I broke my own rule in storing it in a knife roll along with many other knives. I knew it was celluloid but thought I was safe since it had black colored cell handles. Needless to say, I was shocked to find this folder had gone bad after routinely checking on it. Fortunately, no other knives were affected and I removed it and set it aside. I decided to leave it as is out in the open to see if it would get worse over time. After nearly two years, it has not changed...

A great many knife companies have used celluloid for knife handle material over the years and most have held up just fine. But with that said, most veteran knife collectors would advise that knives with celluloid handles should be kept in an open environment and with reasonable temperature and humidity conditions.



 
Thanks herder for the information and reminder about celluloid handled knives! I have a number of vintage celluloid folders from a number of different makers from the 1920s, 30s and 40s. Also some earlier examples than that. I have no modern celluloid traditional folders. None of them show any signs YET of any outgassing. I keep them away and segregated from my other traditional folders, in the open and in a temperature controlled and dark room that I check often. So far so good but I know there is no guarantee and there can be an outgassing event without much warning. The earlier celluloid knives seem less prone to outgassing than some of more recent origin. My advice is don't buy them to begin with or be prepared to loose one or several without much notice or warning. If this happens pull the handles ASAP and get the outgassing folder away from the other folders pronto! I personally like them and am willing to take the risk but am fully cognizant of what might happen. Here are a few Schrade Cut Co. celluloid handled folders I own and couldn't pass on. These are all 70-80 years old. Lloyd
 
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I avoid cell covers because of the threat of breaking down, and keep the few that I have in the open like you mention. Your knive looks to be in decent shape still, why not pull those covers to save that nice knife?
 
Thanks herder for the information and reminder about celluloid handled knives! I have a number of vintage celluloid folders from a number of different makers from the 1920s, 30s and 40s. Also some earlier examples than that. I have no modern celluloid traditional folders. None of them show any signs YET of any outgassing. I keep them away and segregated from my other traditional folders, in the open and in a temperature controlled and dark room that I check often. So far so good but I know there is no guarantee and there can be an outgassing event without much warning. The earlier celluloid knives seem less prone to outgassing than some of more recent origin. My advice is don't buy them to begin with or be prepared to loose one or several without much notice or warning. If this happens pull the handles ASAP and get the outgassing folder away from the other folders pronto! I personally like them and am willing to take the risk but am fully cognizant of what might happen. Here are a few Schrade Cut Co. celluloid handled folders I own and couldn't pass on. These are all 70-80 years old. Lloyd


Keep a close eye on that green one. It looks like the cover is shrinking away from the right bolster. :(
 
Excellent topic. I din't know that the clear covers on those picture knives were celluloid. Thanks for that info!

I've come across a few knives while visiting garage sales that look like they could be celluloid but I'm never really sure. They might be acrylic as the two materials tend to look pretty much the same. Just to be on the safe side, I've never bought one.

Obviously, the older the knife the more likely that the covers are celluloid and not acrylic but what about the newer looking knives?

Is there an effective method of distinguishing between celluloid and acrylic?
 
Thanks guys, and those are some wonderful examples from Luger.

In response to Ernie's question about replacing celluloid handle, many collectors are torn about that same dilemma. I would always side in leaving the original Cell handles on if there is no apparent problem and just keep a constant eye on those knives. Celluloid handles do represent an important and beautiful part of knife history and should be preserved as much as possible.

Railspitter, it is difficult sometimes to determine if certain handles are Celluloid, hard rubber, or plastic. As a general rule, celluloid and hard rubber were used as handles on earlier knives (roughly pre WWII) and plastic handles were used mostly on knives after WWII with the "modern age" of plastics for everything.

Enclosed is an example of a picture type handle from "Canton Cutlery" circa 1900 which has clear celluloid handles over printed advertising. This knife is well over 100 years old and shows no signs of deterioration or out gassing.

 
This Robeson is 80-90 years old and shows no out-gassing, covers are still tight to the bolsters. Older is probably better when it comes to celluloid. I had a 1980s vintage Fight'n Rooster that gassed out in just a couple weeks, from pristine to ruined. I stay away from celluloid now, unless it's prewar (WWII).

GampMopen_zps39a30cbb.jpg~original
 
I have a knife made with Remington blades and frame salvaged from ruined knives that had celluloid handles. All three blades are from the 1930s.
 
I really like the old celluloid knives. Here is a couple of oldies. One I gifted here.

The only knife that has deteriorated on me was a orange pilot survival knife my father gave to me with his flight suit. I don't remember the maker but it had a auto-blade and a chute rigging line cutter blade in it. It was probably 50s or 60s vintage ( i looked for an example to post with no luck ) I had it is a small dresser drawer many years ago and went to get it one day and it had literally turned to dust and melted gunk. It ruined every thing in the drawer. What a mess.

Celluloid 2 by gevonovich, on Flickr
 
Here is an old Curtain & Clark I am going to be carrying today with some coins Fausto sent to me. This thread had me checking on all my celluloid knives:thumbup:

10294325506_6e9f6a6b5f_b.jpg
 
I got my first celluloid knife a couple of months ago, and didn't know anything about the outgassing until conversations here with Rachel, Ted and a couple of others. Now after seeing some warning signs in this thread, I'm a little concerned with this one, but I do keep it on a cedar shelf by itself in my office. I'm still looking for more, as I love the looks and history behind these little guys.

ggsCKXc.jpg
 
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Here is an old Curtain & Clark I am going to be carrying today with some coins Fausto sent to me. This thread had me checking on all my celluloid knives:thumbup:

10294325506_6e9f6a6b5f_b.jpg

Shrunken covers, heavy corrosion on bolsters and possibly blades, that one might be outgassing. Shrunk covers are a sign not all is well, especially when combined with corrosion on the bolsters and back springs.
 
Shrunken covers, heavy corrosion on bolsters and possibly blades, that one might be outgassing. Shrunk covers are a sign not all is well, especially when combined with corrosion on the bolsters and back springs.

When I purchased this one for a dollar at an antique shop many years ago it was rusted shut and had been sitting in a bucket of old rusty knives for no telling how long. There is no telling what happened to it, but it has not gotten any worse then how you see it now. I love the knife and carry if a lot. It sits in front of me all the time at my desk along with some other celluloid knives. It was one of the original knives that rekindled the ember of knife collecting for me. If it goes...I'll know it. In the mean time - not all is lost

“I Think it is lost.....but nothing is ever lost nor can be lost .
The body sluggish, aged, cold, the ember left from earlier fires
shall duly flame again.”


Walt Whitman
 
This Robeson is 80-90 years old and shows no out-gassing, covers are still tight to the bolsters. Older is probably better when it comes to celluloid. I had a 1980s vintage Fight'n Rooster that gassed out in just a couple weeks, from pristine to ruined. I stay away from celluloid now, unless it's prewar (WWII).

GampMopen_zps39a30cbb.jpg~original


That's a great old Robeson and in wonderful condition.

I had a friend who had a large collection of "Fight'n Rooster" knives and several went very bad. Enclosed is a picture of one that he now regularly carries as a "workhorse". You can see the extreme deterioration in the handles with cracks and missing pieces, and pitting on the blade. I had heard that this company had used "old stock" vintage celluloid for some of their knives, but can't confirm that.

 
I really like the old celluloid knives. Here is a couple of oldies. One I gifted here.

The only knife that has deteriorated on me was a orange pilot survival knife my father gave to me with his flight suit. I don't remember the maker but it had a auto-blade and a chute rigging line cutter blade in it. It was probably 50s or 60s vintage ( i looked for an example to post with no luck ) I had it is a small dresser drawer many years ago and went to get it one day and it had literally turned to dust and melted gunk. It ruined every thing in the drawer. What a mess.

Celluloid 2 by gevonovich, on Flickr

Nice examples and sorry to hear about the one from your father. It's amazing how they can affect anything else around them.
 
...
Is there an effective method of distinguishing between celluloid and acrylic?

...
Railspitter, it is difficult sometimes to determine if certain handles are Celluloid, hard rubber, or plastic. As a general rule, celluloid and hard rubber were used as handles on earlier knives (roughly pre WWII) and plastic handles were used mostly on knives after WWII with the "modern age" of plastics for everything.
...
I'm interested in an answer to Rick's question, too.

I also wonder when people first became aware of the problem with celluloid outgassing and whether celluloid continued to be used even after it became apparent that there was a potential for problems.

I've seen descriptions of current Chinese-made knives (e.g., Taylor-Imperial and Rough Rider) that claim the covers are celluloid. Is that the same material that was used in the past, or is there a new modern celluloid that's more stable than the celluloid from 100 or more years ago? Or is it just a marketing gimmick trying to evoke nostalgia with the word "celluloid" when the material is really some stable synthetic? Despite my fears about what might happen with celluloid, I've actually purchased a couple of new Chinese Imperials with what are described as "cracked-ice celluloid" covers.

- GT
 
I got my first celluloid knife a couple of months ago, and didn't know anything about the outgassing until conversations here with Rey, Ted and a couple of others. Now after seeing some warning signs in this thread, I'm a little concerned with this one, but I do keep it on a cedar shelf by itself in my office. I'm still looking for more, as I love the looks and history behind these little guys.

ggsCKXc.jpg

Very nice, and that one looks stable.
 
When I purchased this one for a dollar at an antique shop many years ago it was rusted shut and had been sitting in a bucket of old rusty knives for no telling how long. There is no telling what happened to it, but it has not gotten any worse then how you see it now. I love the knife and carry if a lot. It sits in front of me all the time at my desk along with some other celluloid knives. It was one of the original knives that rekindled the ember of knife collecting for me. If it goes...I'll know it. In the mean time - not all is lost

“I Think it is lost.....but nothing is ever lost nor can be lost .
The body sluggish, aged, cold, the ember left from earlier fires
shall duly flame again.”


Walt Whitman


Great quote from W. W. :)
 
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