Celluloid Knife Handle Deterioration (Out Gassing)

[herder]

I'm interested in an answer to Rick's question, too.

I also wonder when people first became aware of the problem with celluloid outgassing and whether celluloid continued to be used even after it became apparent that there was a potential for problems.

I've seen descriptions of current Chinese-made knives (e.g., Taylor-Imperial and Rough Rider) that claim the covers are celluloid. Is that the same material that was used in the past, or is there a new modern celluloid that's more stable than the celluloid from 100 or more years ago? Or is it just a marketing gimmick trying to evoke nostalgia with the word "celluloid" when the material is really some stable synthetic? Despite my fears about what might happen with celluloid, I've actually purchased a couple of new Chinese Imperials with what are described as "cracked-ice celluloid" covers.

- GT

It seems that most of the problematic celluloid used for knife handles pre-dates WWII, and I had heard that some of the celluloid used on modern knives such as the "Fight'n Rooster" models were actually new old stock material???

Old movie film was also made from celluloid and much of it has also deteriorated in time.

I don't know about the chemical make up of modern celluloid and perhaps there is a better process in stabilizing it, but much the old stuff is still holding up just fine.

 

[Luger1952]

Keep a close eye on that green one. It looks like the cover is shrinking away from the right bolster.

Yeah AFH keeping an eye out for any signs of outgassing is certainly prudent when it comes to celluloid handled knives! It is funny though with the exception of some minor shrinkage on the handle near the right bolster there are no other telltale signs of outgassing. The blades are pristine, the blade well is absolutely shiny brilliant, back spring is near perfect with no rust or corrosion present and tangs are absent any corrosion. Looks near new. But the shrinkage may be an indicator so it pays to be alert.

Here is another celluloid example I have a swell center cattle knife that is well over one hundred years old and with the exception of some minor handle shrinkage there are no other signs of outgassing present. Knife is in very high grade condition for its age.



Lastly if you go to the OKCA Internet site there is a good article on celluloid for anyone that hasn't seen this. Here is the link third article down http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/knews.html

Lloyd

 

[glennbad]

Here are a few pics of outgassed knives. This first one was a Schrade salesmans sample with Tortoise shell cell, that I had for years in mint shape. Then, for no reason, it just started going.





















I love cell knives, and have some in my collection. I do watch them closely though, they can go at any time for no particular reason at all.

 

[Gevonovich]

[


Lloyd

That is one smashing knife! Love the blade selection and shield and of course the swell center

Herder

Thank you sir! I saved your picture of the Canton if you don't mind.


Glenn
Sorry to see such carnage of those beauties! Great material for the thread to show what can happen.

 

[r8shell]

Gary, I kind of assumed that the new Taylor and RR Chinese-made knives are just plastic/acrylic but called "celluloid" for marketing purposes. On the other hand, it makes me hesitant to buy them, just in case, so it's not a wise marketing decision in my opinion.

My favorite cell handled knife is a 1930s Imperial that seems to still be in pretty good shape.




I've read in a few places that celluloid was used pre-WW2, but I think it was used later than that. This Kutmaster is probably from the '50s or even '60s




The Imperial shell constructed knives were also made later, and I believe that the thin coverings are celluloid. 1946-56

 

[glennbad]

The wrapped shell handle cell covers seem much more stable than solid cell covers. They do seem to shrink, but I can't recall any that have really gassed out.

 

[GE Jr]

I don't know when this old Miller Bros Pen Knife was made, but it's gotta be at least around 90-ish years old, I'm guessing. I wonder if, at that age, whether it's more or less apt to spontaneously combust in slow motion.

 

[5K Qs]

Gary, I kind of assumed that the new Taylor and RR Chinese-made knives are just plastic/acrylic but called "celluloid" for marketing purposes. On the other hand, it makes me hesitant to buy them, just in case, so it's not a wise marketing decision in my opinion.

Your opinion is similar to mine, r8shell, but it may just be wishful thinking!

My favorite cell handled knife is a 1930s Imperial that seems to still be in pretty good shape.

That's so green!!

I've read in a few places that celluloid was used pre-WW2, but I think it was used later than that. This Kutmaster is probably from the '50s or even '60s

It's a shame that one is deteriorating; cool ad knife!

The Imperial shell constructed knives were also made later, and I believe that the thin coverings are celluloid. 1946-56

Really like this MOTS, Rachel! I have an almost identical one (a little older, 1936-52) with a spear blade that's a favorite of mine.

- GT

 

[afishhunter]

Gary, I kind of assumed that the new Taylor and RR Chinese-made knives are just plastic/acrylic but called "celluloid" for marketing purposes. On the other hand, it makes me hesitant to buy them, just in case, so it's not a wise marketing decision in my opinion.

My favorite cell handled knife is a 1930s Imperial that seems to still be in pretty good shape.




I've read in a few places that celluloid was used pre-WW2, but I think it was used later than that. This Kutmaster is probably from the '50s or even '60s




The Imperial shell constructed knives were also made later, and I believe that the thin coverings are celluloid. 1946-56

I just got off the phone with Rough Rider Customer Service.
If the description includes the word "Imitation" such as "Imitation Abalone" or "Imitation Tortous Shell" then it is an acrillic, even if the word "celluloid" is included in the description. If it says "celluloid" without "imitation" then it is really celluloid.

Celluloid was used pre-war and post-war. I think it may habe been used pre World War I, in fact.

 

[mitch4ging]

Very nice, and that one looks stable.

Thanks, Herder! Hope to find a few more.
Great examples in this thread.

 

[r8shell]

I just got off the phone with Rough Rider Customer Service.
If the description includes the word "Imitation" such as "Imitation Abalone" or "Imitation Tortous Shell" then it is an acrillic, even if the word "celluloid" is included in the description. If it says "celluloid" without "imitation" then it is really celluloid.

Celluloid was used pre-war and post-war. I think it may habe been used pre World War I, in fact.

Thanks for that info. It's amazing to me that they would still be using celluloid.

Another example: Grandpa's sparkly Peanut. I'm on a hunt for the right glitter acrylic to replace the cell at some point since it's starting to shrink a bit. I want that real sparkly 70s motorcycle helmet stuff.

 

[deltaboy]

Sad 😢 to see this happening.

 

[Luger1952]

With GE posting a photo of a Miller Brothers folder (and by the way nice one GE) I thought I would post this photo of one I have. Happy New Years, Lloyd

 

[5K Qs]

I just got off the phone with Rough Rider Customer Service.
If the description includes the word "Imitation" such as "Imitation Abalone" or "Imitation Tortous Shell" then it is an acrillic, even if the word "celluloid" is included in the description. If it says "celluloid" without "imitation" then it is really celluloid.

Celluloid was used pre-war and post-war. I think it may habe been used pre World War I, in fact.

That's interesting information, Steve! :thumbup:

Thanks for that info. It's amazing to me that they would still be using celluloid.
...

I googled "celluloid" yesterday, and if Wikipedia can be trusted, I can pass on the amazing-to-me fact that a couple of the big current uses of celluloid are for ping-pong balls and guitar picks. Do either of those applications outgas??

- GT

 

[afishhunter]

That's interesting information, Steve! :thumbup:


I googled "celluloid" yesterday, and if Wikipedia can be trusted, I can pass on the amazing-to-me fact that a couple of the big current uses of celluloid are for ping-pong balls and guitar picks. Do either of those applications outgas??

- GT

Don't know ... I don't play the guitar (left wrist prohibits holding it properly) and I've never had a ping pong ball last more than a week before it was dented/squished beyond use.

 

[afishhunter]

An update from Rough Rider concerning their "cellulod" handles. (I had also sent them an email):

Hello Steve

Thank you for your inquiry. The handles you have asked about are indeed made of modern synthetic material and will not fail like the old celluloid product..

Please contact me for further information.

Clayton Suttles
Product Specialist
SMKW

Safe to purchase any of their new "celluloid" handled knives.
I do not know if the same holds true for the new Schrade and Case knives "celluloid" though.

 

[Wurrwulf]

I've read a few posts regarding French Ivory covers being less prone to outgassing, but I've not read that they are completely prone to it. Does anyone have examples of French Ivory covers outgassing? I've got an older pen knife in French Ivory, and I'm concerned as to whether I should keep it near my other knives.

 

[screened porch]

The wrapped shell handle cell covers seem much more stable than solid cell covers. They do seem to shrink, but I can't recall any that have really gassed out.

I think I just found a failed one of this type. This one was bad enough I went ahead and drilled out the hollow rivets. (Always wondered what would be under one of these.)

 

[deltaboy]

Gary, I kind of assumed that the new Taylor and RR Chinese-made knives are just plastic/acrylic but called "celluloid" for marketing purposes. On the other hand, it makes me hesitant to buy them, just in case, so it's not a wise marketing decision in my opinion.

My favorite cell handled knife is a 1930s Imperial that seems to still be in pretty good shape.




I've read in a few places that celluloid was used pre-WW2, but I think it was used later than that. This Kutmaster is probably from the '50s or even '60s




The Imperial shell constructed knives were also made later, and I believe that the thin coverings are celluloid. 1946-56

I got one just like your Imperial but the tang is marked Hammer Brand. But after reading this thread I pulled mine out of the case and keep it out in the open on my dresser.

 

[r8shell]

I got one just like your Imperial but the tang is marked Hammer Brand. But after reading this thread I pulled mine out of the case and keep it out in the open on my dresser.

I've seen the thin sheet covers like on these shrink, but they don't seem to outgas too badly. Still, just in case, I keep mine out in the open, too. Better safe than sorry.