Celluloid Q&A thread

Absintheur

Absintheur

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I have a dozen or so celluloid or similar scaled knives. I have often heard of the damaging out gassing that can occur and I have some questions for those who have the knowledge on the subject. I do suspect some of mine are of a more modern material...when was celluloid used and is the same material being used today?

1. Is there a more than a single type of celluloid on vintage knives and if so how do you tell the difference.

2. Do all celluloids cause damage?

3. What kind of damage is it. Look at this Schrade, you will see small pits that developed in the main blade just at the scale line. Is this out gassing problems?

pits-1.jpg


4. Is there any way to prevent either damage or the out gassing?

5. I do suspect some of mine are of a more modern material...when was celluloid used and is the same material being used today?


My celluloid are all store in open air on shelves and never catch sunlight, is there anything else I can do to protect them?
 
I have never seen that material break down on a Schrade. Does anyone know what it is? I thought it was Delrin, and I have seen two Delrin handles deteriorate, one a Case, and one a Queen..
 
waynorth said:
I have never seen that material break down on a Schrade. Does anyone know what it is? I thought it was Delrin, and I have seen two Delrin handles deteriorate, one a Case, and one a Queen..
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all of my older cell handled knives are deteriorating in one way or another, be it pulling away from the bolsters or beginning to corrode the backsprings and the blade on one knife. This includes both dark and light colors. It was so bad on an old dunlap cattleman that i rescaled it just so the knife could have some more time as a useful tool. I'm not sure there is any rhyme or reason, which sucks.
i just keep mine as you do yours and watch them, if another one really starts to go then i'll rescale it too. Just keep watch over 'em.

Waynorth ive never heard of delrin degrading, that mystifies me a bit as it was and is impervious to chemicals, etc. i have delrin knives in all sorts of colors all the way back to the mid 60's or so and they are all solid.
ivan
 
IVANKERLEY said:
Waynorth ive never heard of delrin degrading, that mystifies me a bit as it was and is impervious to chemicals, etc. i have delrin knives in all sorts of colors all the way back to the mid 60's or so and they are all solid.
ivan
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I removed both sets of handles, and had the knives rehandled. They both started producing a whitish residue on the surface, that would not completely clean off. And they showed slight shrinkage.
If it ever happens again, I will be sure to photograph it carefully. It definitely looked different than decaying Celluloid, which I have also had the pleasure of owning!:grumpy:
 
invented about 1860 & used extensively 1st on many razors.i've had razors well over 100 yrs. no problem. guess the 20s & 30s saw wide use in pocketknives.i've seen knives 80 yrs. old with mint handles of cell. also had knives in 1970s ,80s,&90s which went crazy. the best solution is to segerate cell. from others.production outlawed in u.s. for a long time since its so flammable. sometimes buffer heat can start it going & it looks like a sparkler as it burns.off gassing tends to pit, certainly more severe than surface tarnish.i had one knife in box of 13 others & it damaged all the others. as far as i know early signs are difficult to detect. once it starts i know of no corrective measures but handle replacement. schrade pictured could have been damaged by anoth=er knife, then blade buffed off. the handle on the schrade is not the problem at present. good advice is to keep safe queens of cell. in separate safe. gecs knives are acrylic & very stable.acrylic can be damaged by some solvents so watch what you clean with. i ruined one handle in 80s by spraying with carberator cleaner.
 
From what was said I am guessing there will be visible signs such as shrinkage when celluloid starts going bad. I am also guess the Schrade pictured is not celluloid. Would this be correct?
 
This interests me. I'd like to know if there's a non damaging test that can be used to differentiate celluloid from modern acrylic?

A lot must depend on the chemical mix of the celluloid used by any one manufacturer/batch.This may account for the great difference in 'behaviour' of celluloids, some stay stable where others start to decompose which gives off fumes&residues harmful to other knives. I wonder if brass liners might spark off a reaction in celluloid? Might explain why razors seem to fare better. I believe that all modern knives ARE acrylic but maybe sold as celluloid to give it an Old School aura.
 
Absintheur said:
From what was said I am guessing there will be visible signs such as shrinkage when celluloid starts going bad. I am also guess the Schrade pictured is not celluloid. Would this be correct?
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Yes I do believe you are correct:thumbup:. There is also a cell version of that material (butter and molasses) but it is more opaque in color than that particular material ( if I understand it is a delrin:o) I am sure one of the more astute Schrade Collectors will corret me if I am wrong:thumbup:;) Come on Thawk, Codger:p ETC ETC!



And correction is NO problem;)we all want proper INFO.
 
IVANKERLEY said:
http://www.vintageknives.com/tek9.asp?id=29&pg=blank

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

ivan
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Thanks Ivan...great info in those links, never knew I was carrying bomb grade materials around in my pockets...lol.The sandpaper test would seem to be the easiest to perform without causing much damage to the scales to I am not sure I want to do it to any of my knives. Also knowing the last of the celluloid was used by German makers in the 70's helps me to determine which of my knives might be real celluloid.
 
The knife spoken of is mine, and was my dad's.

A few years ago it began deteriorating, shrinking and splitting.

I have no idea why, as it was kept with all my other knives, and not exposed to anything that would make it do that.

I assumed it must have been celluloid since it went bad that way.

If not, what made it go ugly?
 
buddy of mine sold a mint butter & molasses serpentine stock 3 weeks ago. was definitely a cell. had no deteriation.germans may have ceased prod in 70s but i purchased new introductions in early 90s that went bad . 2 types were eyebrand & one was german buckcreek. fightin rooster collectors should be able to give an update on cell. since they made tons of knives in what certainly looked like cell.
 
Delrin is used on Buck knives if you want a good example, and the newer schrades. My experience with it in designing nests for fixturing is it is stable, easy to machine and impervious to some solvents.. Delrin has a slippery feeling to it and is fairly dense.
all of my celluloid knives go in a seperate drawer, away from sunlight and I leave the drawer slightly open to give it air flow. I haven't had any problems yet.Some of my knives get darker on the steel that is above the liners, but I haven't seen any outgass. Theres some guys on the forum that will tell you some expeiences they have.
The Schrade above appears to be delrin by the looks. You can kind of tell bt scratching or tapping it with your fingernail. If it is hard it is celluloid ,if it has a soft feel to it its delrin. Celluloid in its appearance is unmistakably beautiful compared to the dull appearance of delrin. Acrylic is used on the modern knives and can be just as appealing as celluloid and it is stable as far as outgassing and shrinkage.Keep it away from acetone or other harsh solvent.
These are just my opinions from ovservations over the years and I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything so please take it at face value.
Steve
 
that knife that Absintheur posted is cell, or maybe an acrylic but i dont think its delrin... i was under the assumption that delrin could be dyed, jigged etc. but wasn't necessarily a replacement for celluloid. Didnt think it was capable of that kinda figuring/swirling... maybe i'm mistaken, wouldnt be the first time:)
But look at alot of older delrin knives the scales start to wear down and reveal the base color, which on mine is one flat base color
ivan
 
Your probably right IVANKERLEY. The delrin I have dealt with is a solid color, usually black.
 
navihawk said:
Your probably right IVANKERLEY. The delrin I have dealt with is a solid color, usually black.
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what made me remember it was my old delrin stag camillus #26 and where the jigging has worn down it shows the lighter base color. Same with my old western whittler... I love the old cell but man the heartache when they start to go. I have a camillus fishermans luck that really has started to go and will most likely be on my bench for a rehandle:( sooner than later
ivan
 
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