Ceramic ball on Umnumzaan

Joined
Jan 8, 2001
Messages
1,242
I've been looking at the Umnumzaan, and I have a question. I see that there is a ceramic ball inlaid into the lockface, and that this, rather than the lockbar, contacts the tang of the blade.

I understand that this is high tech and all, but why? Is this better than having the lockface contact the tang?

I'm not trying to stir anything, as I really like the Umnumzaan and may indeed pick one up, just curious if this is really an improvement or a solution looking for a problem. Why the ball?
 
It's simple really, the ball won't wear the tang and the tang won't wear the ball. Before, being a the softer metal between the blade steel and the titanium lockbar, the lockbar would gradually wear over time until it would touch the inside of the opposite scale when the knife would be open. To avoid this wear and create a detent to keep the knife closed at the same time, CRK put the ceramic ball in. It's very clever. This knife is incredibly well thought out!
 
Not to put too fine a point on it... or stir anything up... that's SIMPLY INACCURATE. The ceramic ball on my EDC Lg Seb has worn almost flat. It still works, but just to clarify from a seb carrier for 7 years.... NOT TRUE! Also, the lockbar has hardly moved.

If you look at the pics of the ummnum thingy, you can see that any mating of the lockbar seems pretty crude compared to a seb. I FIRMLY believe that this ball in the lock is just to make production a LITTLE less "hands on" ...which is fine... but let's not make believe it is magic. ...after all... this knife making biz ain't Rocket Surgery!... It's a race to see who can have the best outcome with the least work... not to say that CRK fits in that description, necessarily, but... they will go out of business if they don't do something! ..Enter the Ummnum-thing.

Mind you, this is all speculation... and maybe it will spark some discussion on the topic.... There's a "magic ball" in my knife! ...and it may tell the future of CRK!
 
Just an observation.

The ball is ceramic, right? We use ceramic to sharpen knife blades because they remove metal. These ceramic sharpening stones eventually wear as well.

The ceramic detent ball on the Sebenza creates an arc shaped groove on the side of the blade tang.

So,
I see two things happening on the Umnum. The ceramic ball (eventually) wearing away, and the ball carving a notch in the lockface of the blade, resulting in the lockbar moving across the lockface.

I can't see how this is a better situation than what is presented with the Sebenza.

I'm not poo-pooing the Umnum, just just trying to figure out how this detail is an improvement.
 
I can't figure it out: there's very little surface area touching to keep the lock tight. It would seem a "ball" would "slide" more easily than two slabs touching. So, with little surface area and a seemingly slippery mating system, wouldn't the lock strength be weak? Fail spinewhack at the slightest pressure? I don't know, I don't like the look of it on paper. Keep in mind I haven't seen the original. The blade and lock bar of standard knives gall together, giving needed friction. The umnunmumnunmunwhatever seems almost frictionless. What am I missing?
 
Bro, I've had it happen on one Lg. Seb (that was used for a number of years before I bought it) and had the lock migrate over time on a small....didn't make it all the way over, but went from 1/3 lockup to 3/4 of the way over. Admittedly that wasn't from normal use. I liked the knife soo much I'd continually play with it. So yes, IT: happens. It's called wear. There's been posts about it before. CRK covers it. When you have two metal surfaces rubbing together, the softer one ALWAYS wears over time. It's common sense. It's SIMPLY FACTUAL. Do a search.

Whether or not the ceramic ball scores the tang of the blade will be interesting to see. Won't be seeing any posts on it for a long time I'm sure.


Not to put too fine a point on it... or stir anything up... that's SIMPLY INACCURATE. The ceramic ball on my EDC Lg Seb has worn almost flat. It still works, but just to clarify from a seb carrier for 7 years.... NOT TRUE! Also, the lockbar has hardly moved.

If you look at the pics of the ummnum thingy, you can see that any mating of the lockbar seems pretty crude compared to a seb. I FIRMLY believe that this ball in the lock is just to make production a LITTLE less "hands on" ...which is fine... but let's not make believe it is magic. ...after all... this knife making biz ain't Rocket Surgery!... It's a race to see who can have the best outcome with the least work... not to say that CRK fits in that description, necessarily, but... they will go out of business if they don't do something! ..Enter the Ummnum-thing.

Mind you, this is all speculation... and maybe it will spark some discussion on the topic.... There's a "magic ball" in my knife! ...and it may tell the future of CRK!
 
In all the reading I did about the Umnamzaan and the ceramic ball, I had an understanding that CRK was using a new type of ceramic, one called diamond ceramic(?). I'll look back through the different posts when I get a chance and see if that is so. This would be a good place and time for CRK to step in and maybe explain the concept of this.
 
Bro, I've had it happen on one Lg. Seb (that was used for a number of years before I bought it) and had the lock migrate over time on a small....didn't make it all the way over, but went from 1/3 lockup to 3/4 of the way over. Admittedly that wasn't from normal use. I liked the knife soo much I'd continually play with it. So yes, IT: happens. It's called wear. There's been posts about it before. CRK covers it. When you have two metal surfaces rubbing together, the softer one ALWAYS wears over time. It's common sense. It's SIMPLY FACTUAL. Do a search.

Whether or not the ceramic ball scores the tang of the blade will be interesting to see. Won't be seeing any posts on it for a long time I'm sure.

I always wonder about this.

Yes, there are two surfaces rubbing together, but only slightly. We're talking about high surfaces with very low friction, and maybe 1/16" of travel per cycle.

Another thing is that the lock bar is traveling tangent to the tang. So it's really more like the two surfaces are being quickly pressed together than rubbing. If they were primarily rubbing, they would be parallel, and the two would never mate.

I've been using one of my Sebenzas for almost nine years - cycled it thousands of times. The lock position has not moved (visually) at all. Not one bit.

I wonder if maybe the knives that exhibit this type of wear have lock bar cuts that don't properly match the back-cut on the tang. That would mean a much smaller contact area. Throw a little abrasive grime into the equation, and then maybe... Otherwise I think the Sebenza's lock design is very robust and should easily outlast its user. Not something that needs fixing, IMO.
 
I always wonder about this.

Yes, there are two surfaces rubbing together, but only slightly. We're talking about high surfaces with very low friction, and maybe 1/16" of travel per cycle.

Another thing is that the lock bar is traveling tangent to the tang. So it's really more like the two surfaces are being quickly pressed together than rubbing. If they were primarily rubbing, they would be parallel, and the two would never mate.

I've been using one of my Sebenzas for almost nine years - cycled it thousands of times. The lock position has not moved (visually) at all. Not one bit.

I wonder if maybe the knives that exhibit this type of wear have lock bar cuts that don't properly match the back-cut on the tang. That would mean a much smaller contact area. Throw a little abrasive grime into the equation, and then maybe... Otherwise I think the Sebenza's lock design is very robust and should easily outlast its user. Not something that needs fixing, IMO.

It may be something that happens on others while doesn't on some...because of slightly different fitting? I've had maybe 6 different Sebs at different times and some had different lock bar positions. Most were at about 1/3 but some were half way across...slightly more sometimes. I can see how your speculation may be correct in that problem....but even on a knife that has this problem, it would still probably last a lifetime if used normally rather than played with constantly :D CRK hit's it out of the park with every folder! I don't think there's any flaw in the design, and neither does CRK. Just some people constantly play with the knife and wear out something that really will last a lifetime with normal use like you say. A CRK is for life though man and I agree, very robust. My favorite folder.....that umnum is creeping up though :D if it didn't have the swedge it WOULD be my favorite.:thumbup:
 
It may be something that happens on others while doesn't on some...because of slightly different fitting?

That is the conclusion I would be drawn to. The end of the lock bar and the but of the tang are further out of parallel on the knives that wear quickly.

If those two surfaces are mating properly and everything else fits right, I just do not see how that mechanism can have appreciable wear. It would be like trying to wear out a pencil eraser by tapping it on a table. There's just not enough friction. You have to rub the eraser across the table to get frictional wear.
 
If the lock bar gets worn, and DOES hit the other side, this is where the Stop pin sleeve comes in to play... CRK will just put a SLIGHTLY thicker sleeve on the pin, and viola! Not only does the bar travel an acceptable/maybe perfect distance, but through years of knifesurbating, you have PERFECTLY mated the lockbar and tang. Also, this more or less causes the main flaw of the seb... the stop pin... when you break it down, the vertical force of cutting is only stopped by the little screw... and I imagine that the circumference between the threads is around 1/16"... not toooo sturdy... Enter the Umnum thingy. While it does make up for this weakness, if robustness is the main issue alleviated by this new design... why only ONE of these measly screws in the butt of the handle??? I thought the pin holding the lanyard would stop that section from being compressed, but alas... it seems just to be a perfect cylinder... a major corner cut, IMO. Also, I'd like to know how the thumb lug/blade stop is fitted into the blade.
 
the vertical force of cutting is only stopped by the little screw... and I imagine that the circumference between the threads is around 1/16"... not toooo sturdy...

If I recall correctly, those screws are 303 stainless. Looks like the yield point is 34,800 psi and the ultimate strength is 89,900 psi. Let's roll with the yield point.

Assume a screw diameter of .123". We have two shear planes (the screw is in double shear). So roughly #405 x 2 = roughly #810 of shear force needed to reach the yield point. That would have to come from a moment with an arm length of about 1" to 3".

What are you planning to do with your knife?

In any case, at the very most, I would think simply increasing the diameter of the stop pin would be plenty adequate to withstand any reasonable load that might be put on the blade. Certainly any load that the blade would bear without major damage to the edge.

I guess it's all down to anyone's personal preference, but it strikes me as odd that there's all this hoopla about framelock strength, and yet it is considered "abusive" to baton the spine of a 1/4" A2 blade with a maul. I would be much more likely to do that than I would be to hang #800 on any folder.
 
tsioics, I like your explanation. I'm assuming you are an engineer, and being one myself, I really liked the way you explained it.
 
tsioics, I like your explanation. I'm assuming you are an engineer, and being one myself, I really liked the way you explained it.

I'm an architect, not a PE. Just trying to inject a little quantification.

"... not toooo sturdy..." is pretty vague, even by my artsy-fartsy standards. :)

Materials respond differently to different loading modalities. It just so happens that steel works very well in shear. If you're going to start talking about relative strength or reliability in a connection, you need to have some context and data. Even fuzzy data is a lot better than a bunch of adjectives.

Another thing (maybe getting up on the architectural soapbox a bit here) is that design involves proportion. It is not particularly elegant to design a structure around loads that are never going to be applied to it. More is not necessarily better.

People sometimes lose the forest for the trees, in the sense that they are comparing wild hypotheticals and ignoring actual day-to-day utility. The purpose of a folding knife is to fold and to cut. Obviously one wants the knife to be robust enough to deploy and cut reliably. There comes a point though, where adding structure to the knife begins to impair its ability to cut. This is where you have to ask, is this added structure really serving my purpose, or is it starting to work against me? In order to answer that kind of question, you have to have some sort of data to apply to the problem... because simply having more is not always better. As well-equipped as he might be for the victory celebration, a marathoner with a case of beer on his back is not a better marathoner.

Same thing's true of utility. Smoother pivot, faster action... etc. These are not necessarily features of true utility. Are you familiar with the term "bench racing"? :)

An automatic would be one example of gee-whiz action in a folder, but it has little practical value. In some ways, it's just another thing to break.

So my opinion (and this is nothing more than my personal opinion) is that Chris hit it out of the zip code with the Sebenza. Why? The design does what it needs to do in a very simple and straightforward way. Structurally and mechanically, it does a little more than it needs to do, but that is all. The real reason that the Sebenza is the best folder on the planet (apart from the spartan elegance of the design) is not because of bells, whistles and over-construction. It's because the Sebenza focuses on build quality. It adds up to more than the sum of its parts.

I am not so conservative as to be unable to accept that Chris might release a design that betters the Sebenza. I am though, naturally skeptical regarding added structure and function... because I don't think any more structure or function is needed. So, if they are provided, they have to come, as it were, for free. They must not come at the expense of basic utility or reliability.

If I want to carry an 8" knife that cuts as well as the Sebenza, is stronger and deploys faster, I have about 30 fixed blades that will do just fine.:)
 
All right, T. Are you familiar with the H&K Roller-Lock system, in the G-3 rifle? Design a folding knife lock, based on that design. GO! :)
 
Ya know, I'd have say from an user point of view that the CRK Classic Sebenza is one of the simplest and strongest designs I've ever used. Are there others that are stronger? Hell yeah....check out the new torture test on the XM-18. The pivot, standoffs Rick uses are much bigger than the Sebenzas (or this new design), but what does that really get you? A freaking ass bullet proof tank of a knife. Which one will you use to carve an apple, open a USPS box, breakdown some cardboard, cut off a chuck of salami and a thin slice of bread? Not likely the 3/16" thick blade built on a tank frame...maybe but not likely. Try pushing a 3/16" blade through cardboard (there's a reason they sell box cutters), or slicing a thin piece of meat/bread, or even coring an apple. All tasks that my EDC (reg Classic)has done and continues to do....flawlessly. Unlike some (perhaps not here) I use my EDC throughout the day, in the kitchen, at work, at play, hell wherever and whenever, and the only trouble I ever have is eventually it gets......dull. Duh! No wobble, no worry about tightening/loosing/setup of the pivot pin (finally, thanks CRK), no side play just flawless operation that once in awhile requires some simple cleaning and yes......sharpening. Sharpen....clean...tighten screws until tight (no specs or pivot adustment!) and go. Simple!:thumbup:

Yes my lock bar (if squeezed) goes to the other side and touchs the other Ti handle.....So? Big deal...I'm not getting why this is important??? Again I don't have any play what so ever....none, zip, 0.

And my ball is just fine...it hasn't sunk down into the depths of the handle, how this would happen I don't have a clue (didn't somebody mention that?), it hasn't flatten??? Flatten? Really?...I'm mean seriously, how does a hardened ball bearing flatten? I've worked on cars (as a living) for 20 years and I've never seen a flatten ball bearing. And I've worked on some real beaters! Perhaps the ball wasn't heat treated?? ... Perhaps the the blade is harder than a stainless ball bearing (really?)....I dunno, doesn't seem possible that there would be that much side pressure and somebody could actually open and close one enough to get it to flatten.

Lastly (pulease, too long already), what is going on with this topic of shear strength? I mean dear lord people what the heck are you doing with your folders??? Shear strength? Are you kidding me? We got a stop pin that is ....oh hell I don't know but it's freaking thick.....but it's a chuck of steel that is meant to what? Stop the travel of the blade? Yeah I think that is it's function....shear strength of that pin? Who cares? It's a thick piece of hardened stainless steel....I'm guessing it strong enough to what? Oh yeah, stop the blade. If you are using the blade on your knife to hoist an engine out.....Stop it! It's not meant to do that....no really it's not. As far as this new design of using the frame instead of the stop pin....well it's not new...and personally I like the look and feel of a traditioal stop pin but I'm guessing that using the bulk of the frame is alot stronger than the stop pin.....again not sure why this would be important when I core my apple or cut up cardboard but I guess I just a simple guy who uses a knife for....well I guess boring daily things.

Oh and I thought I would edit this to add....YES, I have overbuilt tank like knives that have a WOW factor of 100 to the power of 10, but they stay in my pocket and get pulled out to do what?......LOL, make people grin and say WOW!

Just my two cents guys.....Cya!
 
Last edited:
Ya know, I'd have say from an user point of view that the CRK Classic Sebenza is one of the simplest and strongest designs I've ever used. Are there others that are stronger? Hell yeah....check out the new torture test on the XM-18. The pivot, standoffs Rick uses are much bigger than the Sebenzas (or this new design), but what does that really get you? A freaking ass bullet proof tank of a knife. Which one will you use to carve an apple, open a USPS box, breakdown some cardboard, cut off a chuck of salami and a thin slice of bread? Not likely the 3/16" thick blade built on a tank frame...maybe but not likely. Try pushing a 3/16" blade through cardboard (there's a reason they sell box cutters), or slicing a thin piece of meat/bread, or even coring an apple. All tasks that my EDC (reg Classic)has done and continues to do....flawlessly. Unlike some (perhaps not here) I use my EDC throughout the day, in the kitchen, at work, at play, hell wherever and whenever, and the only trouble I ever have is eventually it gets......dull. Duh! No wobble, no worry about tightening/loosing/setup of the pivot pin (finally, thanks CRK), no side play just flawless operation that once in awhile requires some simple cleaning and yes......sharpening. Sharpen....clean...tighten screws until tight (no specs or pivot adustment!) and go. Simple!:thumbup:

Yes my lock bar (if squeezed) goes to the other side and touchs the other Ti handle.....So? Big deal...I'm not getting why this is important??? Again I don't have any play what so ever....none, zip, 0.

And my ball is just fine...it hasn't sunk down into the depths of the handle, how this would happen I don't have a clue (didn't somebody mention that?), it hasn't flatten??? Flatten? Really?...I'm mean seriously, how does a hardened ball bearing flatten? I've worked on cars (as a living) for 20 years and I've never seen a flatten ball bearing. And I've worked on some real beaters! Perhaps the ball wasn't heat treated?? ... Perhaps the the blade is harder than a stainless ball bearing (really?)....I dunno, doesn't seem possible that there would be that much side pressure and somebody could actually open and close one enough to get it to flatten.

Lastly (pulease, too long already), what is going on with this topic of shear strength? I mean dear lord people what the heck are you doing with your folders??? Shear strength? Are you kidding me? We got a stop pin that is ....oh hell I don't know but it's freaking thick.....but it's a chuck of steel that is meant to what? Stop the travel of the blade? Yeah I think that is it's function....shear strength of that pin? Who cares? It's a thick piece of hardened stainless steel....I'm guessing it strong enough to what? Oh yeah, stop the blade. If you are using the blade on your knife to hoist an engine out.....Stop it! It's not meant to do that....no really it's not. As far as this new design of using the frame instead of the stop pin....well it's not new...and personally I like the look and feel of a traditioal stop pin but I'm guessing that using the bulk of the frame is alot stronger than the stop pin.....again not sure why this would be important when I core my apple or cut up cardboard but I guess I just a simple guy who uses a knife for....well I guess boring daily things.

Oh and I thought I would edit this to add....YES, I have overbuilt tank like knives that have a WOW factor of 100 to the power of 10, but they stay in my pocket and get pulled out to do what?......LOL, make people grin and say WOW!

Just my two cents guys.....Cya!

Well said Bryan, in regards to the whole ceramic ball wearing....I figure that's a pretty good thing rather than having your blade wear (even being a defective, freak thing) at least you can send it back to CRK and they'll pop in a new one and you're good to go for another 10 years....when you might NEED it refurbished just for the hell of it :p.

I won't argue either side saying either one is better or there's a reason to go out and lay down $400 for another pocket knife BUT:

My reason for buying the Umnumzaan is that I've been carrying a Sebenza for the last two years or so and I've found it to be very smooth, very ergonomic, perfectly constructed (fit and finish wise) and made of premium materials where the only "Better" knife you can get might be a $700 custom. What you get is one of the best knives money can buy with the piece of mind that if you use it as a KNIFE :p you'll find it there 20 years down the line if you take care of it....and if something happens with it, CRK will be more than happy to take care of you and get your trusty knife back in your pocket :thumbup:

That being said, I've had a whole bunch of folders of different types, mainly production/semi production....a few customs, and the Sebenza is the one I feel "Naked" without.

That being said, when I saw the Umnumzaan....I got excited. WHY? Because of the way I feel about the Sebenza. I figure if I like the Sebenza that much, why not try a different flavor from the same people that hit it out of the park the first time and sucessfully sold...essentially the same knife since the 80's. A knife that's got a following both cult and your average working joe (the same guy that might buy a set of Snap On tools) that just wants the best....When I saw that the Umnumzaan is essentially an amped up version of the Sebenza with some cool new features that MAY or may not be "BETTER" but are cool none the less, at least to a guy that loves new gimmicks and gadgets. I saw something I was crazy about and had to have. If for nothing else, to have a different flavor so I could switch off carrying both. I thought it might replace my Seb in my pocket, but no....I find both are equally attractive to me in different ways. No way you could go wrong with either....it's just now people have the option of a more modern looking/beefier/semi tactical style knife or a classic, unassuming knife of Spartan simplicity and perfect constuction/design. Either way you get a winner....options can never hurt.
 
Back
Top