Ceramic bearings

I can say without seeing the wear on my personal knives ... I did handle a couple knives at a gunshow not so long ago that did have noticable wear from ceramic bearings ... one was a Manix ...

but without knowing if the owners used it as a fidgit toy or just the particulars it's hard to say how long it would take through normal use.

I could see a downside but I'm not sure how long it would take the average user would find the wear excessive ... but I agree it can happen from what I've seen ... but no personal issues so far.
 
007Airman said:
Lot of good info and also a good reason not to use ceramic in the lockface.
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What has been observed with ceramic balls used for interface with blade tangs is that the ball quickly ... I’ll use the word “conditions” the point of contact on the steel such that further wear in the steel becomes virtually imperceptible beyond that point. I think this is discussed in an episode of the Bladeology podcast. Episode 3, I think. Long episode, but full of great content.
 
The biggest difference between ceramic and steel is that ceramic is much closer to a perfect sphere than steel. They’re also smoother than the surface. The erosion of grooves into metal by ball bearings is as more an effect of friction than it is hardness of the two materials. There’s not really enough force on the pivot bearings to make hardness the primary factor (demonstrated by the Shiro testing). This is why a titanium-on-steel lock interface is problematic - the whole mechanism is based on high friction, which means the weaker surface will erode (the titanium lockbar).

The issue is friction between the bearing and the contact surface. Since a steel ball bearing is less round and less smooth than a ceramic one, it creates more rolling friction and more wear. Lower friction enough, and wear becomes a non-issue. But if friction goes up, you get more wear. Insufficient lubrication, dirt/grit contamination, and a bunch of other factors can increase friction.
 
RBid said:
What has been observed with ceramic balls used for interface with blade tangs is that the ball quickly ... I’ll use the word “conditions” the point of contact on the steel such that further wear in the steel becomes virtually imperceptible beyond that point. I think this is discussed in an episode of the Bladeology podcast. Episode 3, I think. Long episode, but full of great content.
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The contact surface and the ball bearing will both wear until the friction between them isn’t sufficient to cause noticeable erosion. A ceramic ball, being smoother and rounder than a steel one, will need less time to reach that point. A rougher wear surface will also have more wear before it’s broken-in (e.g. stonewashed titanium is rougher than satin finish, so it’ll wear more before the friction is sufficiently reduced).
 
OrangeBlueOrangeBlue said:
The biggest difference between ceramic and steel is that ceramic is much closer to a perfect sphere than steel. They’re also smoother than the surface. The erosion of grooves into metal by ball bearings is as more an effect of friction than it is hardness of the two materials. There’s not really enough force on the pivot bearings to make hardness the primary factor (demonstrated by the Shiro testing). This is why a titanium-on-steel lock interface is problematic - the whole mechanism is based on high friction, which means the weaker surface will erode (the titanium lockbar).

The issue is friction between the bearing and the contact surface. Since a steel ball bearing is less round and less smooth than a ceramic one, it creates more rolling friction and more wear. Lower friction enough, and wear becomes a non-issue. But if friction goes up, you get more wear. Insufficient lubrication, dirt/grit contamination, and a bunch of other factors can increase friction.
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So wait, the conclusion is ceramic bearings cause less wear than steel bearings?
 
Mo2 said:
Yes I've seen the thread many times. I've also seen it elsewhere online with other people's knives. It's not too common but does happen. Usually when people over tighten the pivot screw
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More of an adhoc post to your comment initially for those that have never seen it.

Maprik said:
This is awesome info. Thank you.
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Another method of dispersing load is to pre-cut the groove for the balls in the Ti on a lathe. This is what Andre Thorburn does and has become a standard for IKBS.

Clyde Chellenor is doing the same for his caged bearings.

As Mo2 mentioned above. Main issue is with people over tightening things.

If there was a true issue with using ceramics it would have surfaced long ago on social media.
 
Maprik said:
So wait, the conclusion is ceramic bearings cause less wear than steel bearings?
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All things being equal, ceramic is less damaging than steel. Unless you’re putting enough force through the bearing to physically press the ball into the wear surface, friction is the bigger issue. I imagine the anecdotal complaints are due to especially rough finishes on titanium, where the friction between the surfaces is high; the ceramic, as the harder material, will polish the titanium until the friction is no longer sufficient to continue the polishing in a perceptible way. The same thing would happen with steel, though.
 
Bump.

I just purchased a Neon Zero and would like to know if anyone has more ceramic bearing use experience to add to this discussion?

I'd like to use ceramic but am worried about damaging the knife.
 
While I did not install them, the original owner of my ZT 0095BLKS90 put them in, and after four years of ownership, I've yet to have any issues. I flip my knives incessantly. I have multiple knives on bearings, both ceramic and steel. Haven't had any issues yet. The only bearing knives I know of with issues have been the Spyderco ones, but that was an issue with the cage cupping/warping.

Most of the chinese knives (WE/Civivi, Bestech, Reate, Kizer, etc) use ceramic bearings.

My only potential issues is on my APurvis Progeny V2, but not the pivot bearings, but the detent. It puts undo pressure on the blade as it pivots, to the point that unless I frequently lube it, I can hear it. I probably should send it in to warranty service, but I'm lazy and have tried to see if I can solve it myself.

With so many companies using them, I don't see how it can be that big of a problem. That being said, swapping them in on a knife that was designed with steel bearings may or may not cause issues, as it as of yet is an unknown quantity.
 
Realysm42 said:
Bump.

I just purchased a Neon Zero and would like to know if anyone has more ceramic bearing use experience to add to this discussion?

I'd like to use ceramic but am worried about damaging the knife.
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AFAIK, Shirogorov does not recommend using ceramic bearings.
 
Shiro won’t use ceramic bearings. They won’t disclose why but they do say steel bearing are better for their uses than ceramic.

Ceramic bearing do not make any noticeable difference in the knife action. A ceramic detent will make a small change.
You can order replacement certified bearings for Shiro from McMaster Carr I believe. They are 1.5mm and between 60-64 hrc.
 
Hi ive searched all over and can't find the answer, would anyone here know what size aftermarket bearings fit in the artisan cutlery arion ?
 
Jcuts8609 said:
Hi ive searched all over and can't find the answer, would anyone here know what size aftermarket bearings fit in the artisan cutlery arion ?
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Not sure about the Arion specifically, but a lot of Artisan knives and knives they make as the OEM use 1/4” pivot, 1/16” bearing.
 
OrangeBlueOrangeBlue said:
The biggest difference between ceramic and steel is that ceramic is much closer to a perfect sphere than steel. They’re also smoother than the surface. The erosion of grooves into metal by ball bearings is as more an effect of friction than it is hardness of the two materials. There’s not really enough force on the pivot bearings to make hardness the primary factor (demonstrated by the Shiro testing). This is why a titanium-on-steel lock interface is problematic - the whole mechanism is based on high friction, which means the weaker surface will erode (the titanium lockbar).

The issue is friction between the bearing and the contact surface. Since a steel ball bearing is less round and less smooth than a ceramic one, it creates more rolling friction and more wear. Lower friction enough, and wear becomes a non-issue. But if friction goes up, you get more wear. Insufficient lubrication, dirt/grit contamination, and a bunch of other factors can increase friction.
Click to expand...

I agree with all you say regarding bearings, but not reg Ti lockbar on steel wear. My respective knives all have carbidized lockbar interfaces which are harder the any steel tang.

The other issue with steel bearings is rust - I’ve had several used knives which needed replacement due to this.
 
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