Change in kami marks

Well, think about it this way, when your kids inherit your khukuris they'll have something to give the guys at the Antiques Roadshow a real headache. :D
 
Never too much Kagas Katne orders onto Sher!
Learning from history is sometimes very important.....
 
We need a hundred or so kagas katnes. I think Sher is just the man for the job. Just kidding. He would probably go back to the farm if we gave him the assignment.

Interestingly, Bura made the last two kagas katnes I got -- of course, you know Bura. He sent them kothimoda style!!!!!! What am I going to do with two kagas katne kothimodas???
 
Tonight I was looking at the makers mark on the WWII that I picked up last week, wondering if it was made by Kesar or Sher. I noted that mark seems to have been done "freehand" and not by a stamp. If this is the case, wouldn't it be possible to get pics of the marks and look for the differences between how they were done? I mean, couldn't it be possible that Kesars rising sun and Shers rising sun would look different in some way since two different men made them? Kind of a signature within a signature? Just a thought.
 
The KNNs, at one time anyway, used slight variations of the butterlamp mark - a dot in the bowl, an "A" frame in the bowl, etc. As a kami takes on a mark formerly used by another, maybe some variation could be worked out, and the identity could still be known.
 
Originally posted by CoalBlack
Tonight I was looking at the makers mark on the WWII that I picked up last week, wondering if it was made by Kesar or Sher. I noted that mark seems to have been done "freehand" and not by a stamp. If this is the case, wouldn't it be possible to get pics of the marks and look for the differences between how they were done? I mean, couldn't it be possible that Kesars rising sun and Shers rising sun would look different in some way since two different men made them? Kind of a signature within a signature? Just a thought.
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I'd be interested to know this too - I got a 'sun-marked' 20in AK just about 3 weeks ago and wondering which kami made it. Here's a close-up of the marking:

HI-AK06.jpg


Obviously this one isn't going to help much as a 'datapoint'. We need to have some 'known-Kesar-suns' and then some 'known-Sher-suns'.

let me know if you find anything more out. (this thread will someday be invaluable for the dealers at Christie's trying to work out how many 0's to put after price of a particular HI khukuri ;) )

B.

(ps actually I realise that's not the best 'close-up' in the world; I could get a better one if it becomes relevant).
 
The kamis marks are hand held stamps struck with a hammer.
It's dayumed nigh impossible if not so to get a steel stamp layed *exactly* over an already stamped piece in order to stamp it again to make it clear.
Restamping just usually fouls the mark up that much more.:(
A stamp that slipped, didn't hit clearly/evenly or was double stamped could very well account for any differences.

Remember that H.I. also has the medallions with the kami's marks on them.
It wouldn't be very cost effective or accurate if the kamis had to stamp each medallion freehand.

Sorry guys.:(

I agree it would be nice to perhaps change the marks just enough to tell when the change took place.
And the differences between each kami's style of forgeing isn't different enough to make a judgement as to whom may have made a particular khukuri.
In the end I imagine we're just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it.
I know it's really an important issue to some, but is it really important enough to add to Uncle Bill's ulcer and blood
pressure?:eek:
It took a great deal of urgeing and threats to get the kamis to stamp the khukuris in the 1st place.:(

Ben I owe you an apology too. I have forgotten all about the piece you need to make a repair on your old khukuri and I just remembered it today.
I will try to look around tomorrow and see if I have something that will fit, if I don't forget again.
Just drop me an e-mail if I don't get back to you soon. I'm like my older Bro in that I have to be reminded sometimes.;)

By the way......... What's the fur you use as a background for your pix?
It reminds me of my beaver skin.:)
 
Ben - I've e-mailed you a drawing of Kesar's mark from my M43. I couldn't get the blade to scan well enough to show detail.

Bro, the mark on the M43 is chisel-cut, as are those on all of my other blades. Some are dot-engraving, and some are straight cuts, but they all vary too much in size and detail to be stamps, unless each kami has a handful of stamps.
 
Originally posted by Walosi
Bro, the mark on the M43 is chisel-cut, as are those on all of my other blades. Some are dot-engraving, and some are straight cuts, but they all vary too much in size and detail to be stamps, unless each kami has a handful of stamps.
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Thanks for the info Bro. All of mine appear to be the same except I haven't really compared any next to one another.
I stand corrected.:D
 
Now if we could make them mark the blades a little different - say making a couple dots close to the mark - this would be a good compromise solution!
Uncle? Guys? What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Yvsa
The kamis marks are hand held stamps struck with a hammer.
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I feared this might be the case

Originally posted by Yvsa
I agree it would be nice to perhaps change the marks just enough to tell when the change took place.
And the differences between each kami's style of forgeing isn't different enough to make a judgement as to whom may have made a particular khukuri.
In the end I imagine we're just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it.
I know it's really an important issue to some, but is it really important enough to add to Uncle Bill's ulcer and blood
pressure?:eek:
Click to expand...

No. :eek: and besides, that wouldn't do me any good now anyway--since I'd know more or less than from now on the sun=sher; I'm curious about the one I already have ;) It's not that important to me--just curious. I'm just going to call it a 'Sher' since I like that name ;)


Originally posted by Yvsa
Ben I owe you an apology too. I have forgotten all about the piece you need to make a repair on your old khukuri and I just remembered it today.
I will try to look around tomorrow and see if I have something that will fit, if I don't forget again.
Just drop me an e-mail if I don't get back to you soon. I'm like my older Bro in that I have to be reminded sometimes.;)

By the way......... What's the fur you use as a background for your pix?
It reminds me of my beaver skin.:)
Click to expand...

Yvsa - no worries. I was actually to going to email you one of these days to see if you'd found anything. That Moscow Hide & fur shop you recommended me looks like they'd have something if you can't turn up anything easily - so if nothing's immediately obvious it's probably easier for me just to order something from them. Their prices seem pretty low, so I don't think it'ld cost much.

The fur is actually--I believe--buffalo hide. It's really the top of an NDN drum of my brother's; which he got for helping someone cleaning up after a fire in her house. Unfortunately the drum was tossed out a window to save it, so the top was punctured/gashed (though one can still make a lot of noise with it ;) ). I just find it a nice backdrop. Supposedly professional photographers like black velvet as a backdrop; and a black hide is similar.

cheers, B.
 
Boy, I guess that Durba's leaving will only increase the value of my Durba Chitlangi, eh, JIM? ;) ;) ,nudge-nudge, say no more!

-Craig
 
Originally posted by Yvsa


Thanks for the info Bro. All of mine appear to be the same except I haven't really compared any next to one another.
I stand corrected.:D
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Oh - more messages - that's what happens when one takes too long typing a message I suppose ;).

B.
 
Don't know if this is any help, but the half-sun on the AK blem I bought 10/15 is definitely chiseled as can be seen byl all the indents on the straight line and half circle. Quite different from Beo's picture as all the rays begin at the half-circleon mine, there are no gaps between the "fatter" part of the half circle and the beginning of the rays as in the posted picture.

If I had to bet, I'd still bet on the kami's winning on this one though. They said the marks were meaningless. I think that they may have made their point in spades.
 
Originally posted by Walosi
Ben - I've e-mailed you a drawing of Kesar's mark from my M43. I couldn't get the blade to scan well enough to show detail.

Bro, the mark on the M43 is chisel-cut, as are those on all of my other blades. Some are dot-engraving, and some are straight cuts, but they all vary too much in size and detail to be stamps, unless each kami has a handful of stamps.
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Here's Walosi's:

walosi-kesar-sun.jpg


and here's a rough drawing of mine - I can try to get a better pic sometime:

slade-kami_x-sun.jpg


I can probably add to my crude drawing a few words - the 'rays' are all of approx. equal length, unlike Walosi's. The rays are also wider on the end farther from the half-circle, almost like thin triangles - assuming this is a product of the tool used. The rays also, in most cases, do not make direct contact with the half-circle. The circle itself seems, on close inspection, to be made of tiny little dots very close together.

The main difference I see is the unequal lines in Walosi's. If this is a common theme in Kesar's sun-marks....do we have any definite Sher suns?

b.
 
More info on my one example (I'm only in this discussion because its probably from the crossover time). All chisel marks on the straight part follow the main line, no marks on the straight line are perpendicular to the straight part of the half circle as in beo's sketch. All rays are about the same length, and while not quite parallel, their origin would be quite far beyond the center of the circle.

Good luck, I suspect the kami's grab whatever tool is handy and just make whatever rendition of the mark strikes them at the time. They may even have an apprentice do this mark if they don't view it as important. Sorry to be so gloomy on this, the permutations so far are alrady depressingly large to be thought of as two people's consistent signatures IMHO.

Best of luck.
 
Originally posted by firkin
More info on my one example (I'm only in this discussion because its probably from the crossover time). All chisel marks on the straight part follow the main line, no marks on the straight line are perpendicular to the straight part of the half circle as in beo's sketch. All rays are about the same length, and while not quite parallel, their origin would be quite far beyond the center of the circle.

Good luck, I suspect the kami's grab whatever tool is handy and just make whatever rendition of the mark strikes them at the time. They may even have an apprentice do this mark if they don't view it as important. Sorry to be so gloomy on this, the permutations so far are alrady depressingly large to be thought of as two people's consistent signatures IMHO.

Best of luck.
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You're probably right firkin. I was just wondering if there was a consistent difference between the two in that Kesar used long & short rays and Sher lines of roughly equal length. But it's probably more likely the differences are attributable to the apprentice--who I imagine is likely the one who actually makes the mark--than to the kami himself; and then maybe how the apprentice is feeling on that particular day. Now if Kesar and Sher each use a particular apprentice.... ;) ;)

someone should give a synopsis of this thread to the kamis--I'm sure they'd find it quite amusing :D :D
 
Beo, from what I've been able to gather from previous posts on the signature marks, amusing is probably a overly generous and polite rendition of what they'd really think (but they might not say so). "Inconceivable waste of time, go use the damn knife to cut/chop something--that's what its for" is probably a courteous translation of what their true thoughts might be.

If only most stuff that I have to use was designed and prodcuced with similiar sentiments.
 
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