Charpy toughness of historical swords?

well, some swords actually soften over time.
http://pueblo-ops.cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10.11648.j.am_.20130204.12.pdf

metal aging leads to recrystallization, grain growth, and softer metal in bronze and iron and steel. maybe a different reaction for hardened steel. But, age hardening is typically used in the literature as a synonym for precipitation hardening. This occurs over 10 or so hours at high temps. Maybe there is low temp precipitation hardening, but then it would be in competition with the aging process and relaxing of steel.

Do you know anything about this other than something from a dodgy pay-to-publish journal? The claim in that paper that "Some low-energy mechanisms are blocked at elevated temperatures but released at ambient temperature. The activation energy of such mechanisms is much lower than the activation energy of relaxation processes at elevated temperatures." is pretty anti-science.
 
well, some swords actually soften over time.
http://pueblo-ops.cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10.11648.j.am_.20130204.12.pdf

metal aging leads to recrystallization, grain growth, and softer metal in bronze and iron and steel. maybe a different reaction for hardened steel. But, age hardening is typically used in the literature as a synonym for precipitation hardening. This occurs over 10 or so hours at high temps. Maybe there is low temp precipitation hardening, but then it would be in competition with the aging process and relaxing of steel.


That's a good article, but unfortunately the researchers base much of it on the huge flaw of assuming that the modern reproductions are directly comparable to the ancient pieces, when to begin with, the modern alloys are going to be more pure, inclusion-free by ancient standards and formulated under much more strict controls (unless the reproduction smith smelted his own ore the old fashioned way, but I didn't see it mentioned). As we all know, tiny amount of elements or contamination can have a big affect on an alloy's properties.

Another thing is that they keep saying that the spontaneous recrystallization is "softening" the metal over time, but what they describe is more of a drop in toughness - almost like a mis-translation. I would think that grain growth is likely to make the blade more brittle, as Kohai999 said about the 500 year-old Japanese swords.

The effects of aging/precipitation-hardening in beta titanium alloys is much different in a billet that has been solution-treated, than in an annealed or plain forged bar, or a non-beta-metastable ti alloy. I would expect this to be true in martensitic steels as well, as you mused above. The alloys in question in the article - bronze, or iron, must be hardened mainly through work and not heat-treatment, just like alpha or alpha-beta ti. I wish the article went into detail about the differences in mobility between substitutional and interstitial alloying elements during spontaneous recrystallization. I'm sure there are different effects depending on which elements are in question, and the level of saturation, as well.

According to the article, the aging processes that happen over time at ambient temperatures are different from the forces at play during heated/accelerated aging. Is that what you mean by low-temp precipitation hardening being in competition with aging and relaxing of steel? One thing I completely agree with in the article, is that the recrystallization that happens over time, happens a lot faster than is usually assumed.

Unfortunately, I only have an anecdotal explanation for the phenomenon of recrystalization over time, from my welding instructor who was very savvy when it came to metallurgy and heat-treatment. He was teaching me and my blowhard group of scallywag students to weld cast iron, which isn't the easiest thing to do. Somewhere in the blur of lectures between shop hours, he said that old iron engine blocks that had been sitting undisturbed for decades were desirable to hot-rodders. He said that over time the cast iron undergoes a slow recrystallization that makes the blocks more rigid and flex less, which is good for forced-induction or high-compression engines. Is it true? I don't know I like 80's cars with pop-up headlights! :]
 
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yes, what I meant about low temp aging versus high temp aging is that the high temp seems to be precipitation hardening and the low temp seems to be recrystallization and relaxing. I don't know enough to be certain about precipitation at low temperatures over long periods of time, and that is what I actually want to learn about. The term aging is used to describe two very different processes, though, and that makes things a little tricky.

But, you are right, they say hardness when toughness is more of an appropriate term. The larger and more coarse grains aren't going to make the steel harder.

kc
 
Exactly, the bigger grains might make the blade feel harder and more glass-like, but it will be more brittle, less tough and easier to break. I don't think it would mean a higher hardness measurement using the normal indentation tests, but as long as the grains aren't too huge, it's possible!

I also would like to know more about any sort of precipitation over time that comes along with the slow recrystalization.
 
Yeah sorry about that, as far as not communicating the original idea.

About 15 years ago, the question came up with some experienced JSA cutters about using antique katana blades to cut.

"Experienced" cutters like to drive their blades as hard as possible....not doing stupid stuff like trying to cut machine gun barrels or glass, but thicker bundles of wara(tatami mats), green bamboo and maybe yellow bamboo(which scratches the hell out of blade polish and dulls the edge).

What I had heard from some of the more advanced guys was that the antique swords were more likely to break into pieces on bad cuts than modern swords. The soft backs and hard edges were designed to obviate this problem, so I was curious.

"Age embrittlement" perhaps is a better description than age hardening? Anyway, the phenomenon was observed and affirmed by my sources. Hank Reinhardt in particular told me that he was very cautious about using antique blades until he had a chance to slowly try them out in swinging exercises and light cutting experimentation.

Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It does. Thanks. I wish I could have met Hank. But, I got into this in 2008, and therefore I missed him. He passed before I started travelling to shows and gatherings.
 
ok, thanks for helping me understand that. I was mistakenly thinking of increased RC hardness some way.
kc

Hell, I'm just trying to understand it too! :D There wasn't much information to draw upon over the course of figuring out the nuances of forging beta ti into swords and heat-treating them. What came about was a process of carefully discerning what's happening to the blade as it's processed, trusting the observations as "real" even when they can be as subtle as instinct, and then later on researching to figure out why the observed results were seen. It's been a useful way of developing a reliable, explainable process when there was none.

So when people start saying that very old blades can become more brittle or "hard" over the centuries, I can't help but to assume it's real and try to figure out why!

Just to guess, I would think that an old sword could possibly see a small rise in Rockwell hardness, followed by a drop as time marched on and the grains slowly grew. But that's just musing about it.
 
Yeah sorry about that, as far as not communicating the original idea.

About 15 years ago, the question came up with some experienced JSA cutters about using antique katana blades to cut.

"Experienced" cutters like to drive their blades as hard as possible....not doing stupid stuff like trying to cut machine gun barrels or glass, but thicker bundles of wara(tatami mats), green bamboo and maybe yellow bamboo(which scratches the hell out of blade polish and dulls the edge).

What I had heard from some of the more advanced guys was that the antique swords were more likely to break into pieces on bad cuts than modern swords. The soft backs and hard edges were designed to obviate this problem, so I was curious.

"Age embrittlement" perhaps is a better description than age hardening? Anyway, the phenomenon was observed and affirmed by my sources. Hank Reinhardt in particular told me that he was very cautious about using antique blades until he had a chance to slowly try them out in swinging exercises and light cutting experimentation.

Hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I love this sort of metallurgical minutiae. Part of the confusion is because "aging" and "precipitation hardening" are used interchangeably for heat-treatment. Precipitation heat treatments aren't just for hardening, but for greatly strengthening and otherwise altering other properties of the alloy in some beneficial way. The growth of crystal grains is separate does not necessarily mean the movement of particles throughout the solid as with precipitation.
 
Now I'm only tossing this info in as a total tangent, but would it be possible in forged steel blades that over time microscopic corrosion could cause blade failures that might mimic a overly hard blade? I'm thinking that most old blades would have been layered to at least some degree, either from re-forgings, hammer sharpening, all that sort of thing.

The reason I ask is that on occasion with straight razors, someone will come up with a vintage razor of good make that will not hold an edge for love nor money, and its presumed that the crumbly nature of the edge is due to corrosion in the steel. They will hone and polish, but the torsion of the hair pulling 90 degrees to the edge tears the edge off. (or so I understand) After some stock removal, these blades tend to be just fine, once a couple thousandths have been removed. those are typically around the turn of the century, and a little before so if it can happen to a "modern" piece of steel in 100 years, how much more damage could be done to steel in 500?

So since the older steel would have unknown contamination, potentially differing layers that might have differing compositions, any microscopic fracture could be a source.

Maybe this is all common knowledge, and so basic its not even mentioned. maybe I'm wrong, I've always thought of the old blades to be less of an inert chunk of metal, and more of an almost living thing, from forging, through use and then rest.
 
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