Chasing patterns... Imperial Outer's

Codger_64

Codger_64

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Forrest Gump said:
Mrs. Gump: I happen to believe you make your own collection. You have to do the best with what Schrade gave you.

Forrest Gump: What's in my collection, Mama?

Mrs. Gump: You're gonna have to figure that out for yourself. Knives are like a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna get.
Click to expand...



As in the above paraphrase, you never know where Schrade knife research will lead. I decided to look closer at the Imperial hunting knife pattern. They were made as Imperials and as Hammer Brands, and they came from a slightly simpler pattern, what I found to be called the Outer’s pattern . This one I followed from the script stamped Imperials back to Marbles Safety Ax Company in 1930. And the surprise, another knife pattern it replaced that they made in 1902-1930.

The Marble's Safety Axe Company released the original Dall DeWeese hunting knife in 1902 and it went out of production in about 1930. DeWeese was a big-game hunter from Canon City, Colorado, famous at the time. His intent with this design was to create "the lightest, most compact utility knife which could be made."

The DeWeese knife featured a high-carbon cutlery steel blade 4 1/4 long and the overall length was just 7 3/4" (very typical sizing for fixed blades of the time). It had a "dull saw back" for placing the thumb on the spine while working.

Dall DeWeese was an adventurer, horticulturist, entrepreneur, and amateur paleontologist who hunted with Teddy Roosevelt on several occasions. His trips to Alaska inspired him to write to Roosevelt and led to the establishment of game laws there as well as the Kanai penninsula reserve.

When the Marble's DeWeese hunter was discontinued in 1930 this knife, the Outer's, replaced it in their line-up. These sold for about a dollar during the Great Depression and were styled after kitchen knives but with stout, full-tang construction. Marble's did not make these after World War II. They were 7 1/2" long and overall with a 4 1/4" upswept (trailing point) blade. The steel was high-carbon. The Outer’s pattern knife used, instead of a cast or flat metal guard, a swelled bolster, again very popular today on custom and some production fixed blade knives.

Although Marbles quit making the Outer’s pattern (except for a 500 pc. Limited edition in 2003), quite a few other cutlerys picked it up, some keeping the basic blade, bolster, and flat slab jigged bone handles, and some opting to modify the pattern with an oval aluminum, steel, nickle silver or brass guard.

Outer's pattern knives from Western, Colonial, Imperial, Queen City and quite a few other makers will be seen, and some as yet unconfirmed knives with the Imperial stamp in script.

Codger
 
A Utica Sportsman. Scales looked like bakelite,but I'm not sure.

utic4

utic
 
Oh, great fixed blade guru....

Is this connected somehow?

Royal2.jpg


Royal1.jpg


The blade style and handle construction look very much alike.

Glenn
 
I am not familiar with Royal Brand Cutlery, but yes, it looks to be an SFO of the modified Outer's pattern from some primary manufacturer to one of the NYC distributors (or Chicago, Salt Lake, St. Louis) of hardware. Lemme research it an see.

Codger
 
Interesting...

Royal Brand seems to have it's roots as a Sheffield company...

royallogo.jpg


All my searches brought up mostly dinnerware or carving sets, there was one mention of a military fighting knife.

Mine clearly says USA, though...

Glenn
 
Carving sets is what I am finding too, and variations on the cutlery name indicating Sheffield. Since there is a USA mark, we can surmise it is at least post WWI, and probably an SFO from an American cutlery to their US distributor. Ain't this fun?

PS- anyone have a Schrade Cut Co. or an Olcut, Jean Case, Camillus, Aerial, Pal, or Kinfolks in this pattern?
 
I found 2 entries for Royal Cutlery Co. (USA) 1814-1954 but little info. I see mention of a folder but havent the fogiest as to what else they may have made.
 
Codger_64 said:
PS- anyone have a Schrade Cut Co. or an Olcut, Jean Case, Camillus, Aerial, Pal, or Kinfolks in this pattern?
Click to expand...

I have a few Jean Case/Kinfolks fixed blades and watch the eBay listings,but I've never seen one like these. A lot of these "Outer's" style knives have been cheaply made.
The Little Valley Co. made a lot of knives similar to the Marbles Woodcraft.All of their knives that I've owned have been quality knives.
From my files:
Several different companies have used the Kinfolks brand over the years.

The original Kinfolks Inc (K.I.) was a joint venture of Case and Cattaraugus, founded 1926. Name purchased by Robeson in 1951, abandoned by them in 1965. Name registered by Jim Parker in 1993.

Another note,with conflicting dates on the Robeson exit:
Kinfolks was formed in the 1920's with backing by WR Case & Sons Cutlery Company and the Cattaraugus Cutlery Company......these two companies had some family members in common; hence the name "Kinfolks". The factory was in Little Valley New York.

The intent was that the firm would manufacture hunting knives (which were in those days a relatively new construct) for both Case and Cattaraugus, as well as supplying the market with Kinfolks brand hunting knives. There were also some pocket knives and possibly razors made marked "Kinfolks"....I do not know whether these were made in the Kinfolks factory or on contract.

I also don't know when Kinfolks went under, but I assume that they switched to military production for WWII and then just ceased operation.

Later, in the 1950's, Robeson Cutlery Company of Rochester NY acquired the Kinfolks brand, and manufactured hunting knives and a few pocket knives in the Robeson plant but with the Kinfolks brand. They even put out a separate catalog for the Kinfolks line....so that it was by appearances a separate company. Robeson ceased operations circa 1963.

In recent years, Jim Parker of Tennessee acquired the Kinfolks trademark and used it on some pocket knives. Recently, WR Case and Sons acquired the trademark back from Parker...and I believe that they are using it on some limited edition pocket knives.
Ron
 
I got a second Outer's pattern recently, a Hammer Brand. The tang stamp is much sharper than any other Hammer stamp I have seen, usually on Imperial made shells.
Is this a pre-Imperial Hammer Brand? Or can anyone tell?

Thanks,
Dale



 
Here is one you may not see to often in bone. Perhapes some day if the legislation is passed I may be able to have a place to display it. ( Please help send emails see other thread ). LT
 

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Do you have an approximate date on that one LT? I do wish you would show us more Schrade Cut Co rigid blades. I've only seen three patterns so far, and nothing that positively dates them, other than the materials used.

This is a bone handled Outers pattern Imperial, but with the script stamp we haven't been able to verify yet. Note the different butt shape, and the blade pattern more like the Marbles Woodcraft style (though not an exact copy).


14l0mrr.jpg


Here is a recent Marbles Safety Ax (MSA) Outers pattern knife, a reissue of one of their knives from the 1920-30 period of the same pattern.

14l0s44.jpg


Codger
 
It is a model 662 ( so marked on the other side ). It is the only Schrade cut sheath knife of that type that I have. I can find nothing in writing. However it would have to be early, Schrade cut really did not make fixed blades until the 40tys WW II however this is obviously earlier. I would have to guess on vintage. Remember Schrade did not go to 3 digit models until Schrade Walden 1946 under Schrade Walden, so this is indicative of an early marking also this is a very early jigging. In fact the closest knives that I can find related to Schrade with even a close similarity to the jigging would be from Press button ( Walden knife which was the first company G Schrade worked for ( as manager and part owner of the press button division of Walden knife. ) before starting Schrade with his brothers. Knowing and surmising what I can I would make the knife very early thirtys and or earlier perhapes much earlier. It almost seems to be of the type that would have been sold in a set perhapes with a pocket knife combo. Although who knows. Again the jigging may be the key I have no other Schrade cuts with this style so if they were using it it had to be when they first started also the old catalogues carry no fixed blades so perhapes it was discontinued real early to concentrate on pocket knives. Also note something not normally seen a Schrade Cut Co 2 line tang ( very rare ) also with no dots (periods) after the CUT or CO. The stamp on this knife is quite unusual. LT
 
orvet said:
I got a second Outer's pattern recently, a Hammer Brand. The tang stamp is much sharper than any other Hammer stamp I have seen, usually on Imperial made shells.
Is this a pre-Imperial Hammer Brand? Or can anyone tell?

Thanks,
Dale


Click to expand...

Dale,
From my files:
Imperial acquired the Hammer Brand trademark in 1936, five years after NYKCo closed. They mainly used this on the Jackmaster shell-handled knives, but not exclusively.

USA together with Hammer Brand is always Imperial. BRL...


I guess Levine's comment applies to fixed blades,but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Ron
 
Ron,
What struck me as so unusual about this stamping was the detail of the stamp. The facets of the hammer head and the rolled up shirt sleeve on the arm are details I have not seen on the Imperial made Hammer Brand shell knives.

I will have to remember to take that knife to the OKCA show next year and ask BRL about it. He is usually at the show, as he lives in Eugene and is (I believe) a member of OKCA.

Dale
 
Dale,
I pulled that quote from his "knife identification" forum on this site.If you do a search,you may find the thread.It's probably less than 4 months old.
Ron
 
Re: Royal Brand.....

I'm a bit of a Johnny Come Lately on this one, sorry.

Royal Brand was a New York City company, founded by Samuel Bernstein in 1914. They had knives imported and made domestically.The company was taken over in 1941 by the National Silver Company...which is one reason why Glenn found references to tableware, as they were famous for silverware.

Just for lrv, here is a ROYAL BRAND jack pattern.....
14me148.jpg


Hope you can read the stamp...it is ROYAL BRAND...(over)...U.S.A.

According to Goins' book, they sold a lot of knives through F. W. Woolworth.

Bill
 
Better late than never Bill! You usually dig an answer up somewhere to most any question. I finally located a copy of Goins book for myself, a perfect match for my signed copy of the Switchblade book by our own LT, the Goins is also signed, albeit by Charlotte Goins since her husband is no longer with us. It hasn't arrived yet, but I sure hope it is filled with fixed blades!

Codger
 
I don't think Goins ever mentions fixed blades.....OK, Ok, just kidding. :D

I'm sure you'll find the book very useful...and it's nice that Mrs. Goins signed your copy, as I bet she helped with the work as well. :thumbup:

Bill
 
I think she is listed as coauthor, and is given credit in the book for research. How could a guy do that much research and not involve his wife? My wife is always thrilled ( :rolleyes: ) when yet another knife, or book, or odd catalog arrives! "But dear, don't you have one like that?" she asks supportingly and eagerly awaits my explanation as to how this one is different from the other twelve of that same pattern that I already have.
 
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