Chasing Perfection

SVanderkolff

SVanderkolff

Joined
Oct 31, 2002
Messages
979
if we ever manage to approach perfection in the manufacture of a knife where does that leave the flavour of the maker. With the advent and use of better and better equipment ,the quest to master that equipment and master the processes required to make a knife is the maker being pushed out of the process. If a knife is made perfectly where is the maker shown? Does the design become the signature of the maker? If so why would we not simply design knives for the machines to make?
Thanks
Steve
 
Perfection is not a single goal to which all aspire. Perfection is an individual goal we can apply to each knife.

As I was perusing blades the other day, I came upon one knife that sucked the air from my lungs. Here's a picture:
perfection.jpg


To my eyes this is an extremely beautiful knife... one made by hand, not by some fancy machines that are programmed to deliver some pre-canned notion of perfection.

Some of the more experienced makers may look at this knife and envision changes that woudl make it even more "prefect". And that's to the good.

Perfection is as individual as the stars in the sky, the snowflakes falling in winter, or the people we see around us. There is no one universally accepted notion of the perfect knife. Make it as good as it can be, and rest assured someone will look at it and think of ways they believe it could be better.

- Greg
 
Perfection is not the object of art. The object is "expression",... personal expression.

Although striving for perfection may sound like a worthy goal, it is totally abstract, idealistic and unobtainable. It sounds good coming from the mouth, but turns bitter in the stomach.

Striving for perfection always results in failure.

Perfection lacks beauty, personality, the human factor,... and is boring.

Strive for individuality, personality, originality, character, and "personal expression".

Chasing perfection is like chasing after the wind, (or a dog chasing it's own tail)... Here in Tucson, that's just a lot of hot air.
 
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My constant dissatisfaction is what drives my creativity.

In my mind everything I finish is a dissapointment and everything in progress is genius.

So striving and failing in the persuit of perfection is the most depressing, uplifting thing I have ever found to do with my time.

To Fuss is human.

To rant; devine!
 
Rossi Knives said:
My constant dissatisfaction is what drives my creativity.

In my mind everything I finish is a dissapointment and everything in progress is genius.

So striving and failing in the persuit of perfection is the most depressing, uplifting thing I have ever found to do with my time.

To Fuss is human.

To rant; devine!
Click to expand...

Get yourself involved with the "creative process", and the "end product" will take care of itself. :)

"Striving for perfection" is a redundant expression and meaningless cliché...
 
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Actually what I was aiming for and obviously missed was" If we attain perfection in fit and finish of a knife is there anything of the maker left in the blade?"
Steve
 
SVanderkolff said:
Actually what I was aiming for and obviously missed was" If we attain perfection in fit and finish of a knife is there anything of the maker left in the blade?"
Steve
Click to expand...

No, because perfection is humanly unobtainable.

There is always something of the maker in each piece, whether intentionally or not.

If a knife is made by a human, then it will be evident in the work... and the work will not be perfect.

It's like absolute zero,... a receding horizon.

You can always do better,... but you can never do your best,... or obtain the absolute.

I call it art. :)
 
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Tai Goo said:
Perfection is not the object of art. The object is "expression",... personal expression.

Although striving for perfection may sound like a worthy goal, it is totally abstract, idealistic and unobtainable. It sounds good coming from the mouth, but turns bitter in the stomach.

Striving for perfection always results in failure.

Perfection lacks beauty, personality, the human factor,... and is boring.

Strive for individuality, personality, originality, character, and "personal expression".

Chasing perfection is like chasing after the wind, (or a dog chasing it's own tail)... Here in Tucson, that's just a lot of hot air.
Click to expand...

Lots of wisdom there for makers and collectors. I for one do not want to see the chase for perfection replace "beauty, personality, the human factor, individuality, personality, originality, character, and "personal expression"." To me along with skill those are the main things that constitute the "perfect knife". I would rather see the chase for those aspects with the desire to do it better every time.
 
Tai Goo said:
Get yourself involved with the "creative process", and the "end product" will take care of itself. :)

"Striving for perfection" is a redundant expression and meaningless cliché...
Click to expand...

I would argue that the "creative process" is just as meaningless.

I do create. What I create is a manifestation of my experiences. The process that takes me to that finished product is driven by my desire to make it "perfect" in my mind. I then fail and the process starts over again. It is a perpetual motion machine that seems to produce better and better knives, if I do say so myself.

Is that my creative process?
 
Well I think there is no perfection.
There is always something that could be better. Purely objective or tastewise.
If you add up everything you like you will get contradictions.
Like the usefullness of a sheepfoot point but the beauty of a nice clip point.
That's my taste so I will never have perfection.

Technnically I strive for perfection but know I will not reach it.
At a certain point I decide that enough effort is put in that stage and move up to the next.
But I will always do the best I can
 
The art of the maker is in the design, but I do believe that the execution should be darn near perfect.

Some makers can use equipment, like Brian Tighe uses CNC, other makers do it ALL by hand like Wolfgang Lerchner (sp)
Either one does it so well, that the execution is flawless and it allows me to appreciate the styling.
Yes a distinctive style does become the signature. I can identify many makers by knife photo without reading the stamp.

For example:

I saw your Dark Star Dagger at a show in person before it made the cover of Knives.

Although I really liked the materials and styling, all the radii and curves of the pearl and damascus inlays in the handle were inconsistent and off centre. You could have really benefited with some water-jet cutting, or a rotary table on a mill.

It's not visible in the photos because it was photographed on the bias from an angle that minimized that perception.

The design and materials obviously dictated that it was handmade, even a "art" knife, there was no mistaking that. But I absolutely disagree that the flaws are necessary to define it as handmade.

I think a knife at that level should be as perfect a humanly possible and by eye I could really see that it wasn't.
 
There is a difference between "craftsmanship" and "perfection".

Good "craftsmanship" helps drive personal expression to it's mark, and makes the work more convincing.

Poor craftsmanship is just poor craftsmanship... no matter how good the design. I think it takes good craftsmanship and good design to make a truly successful work of art.
 
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Numbers
Thank you. I could not have asked for a reply that better illustrated my point. Let me start by saying that I am very proud of that knife. It was made with the tools I had available 5 years ago, no mill, and stretched my abilities to their utmost at the time. Could I make a better knife now, of course. But your preference would have been to use a more machine driven construction in order to illiminate the limits of the makers abilities . So a knife that I designed but had water jet cut and simply assembled has more appeal than one with flaws that represents the best of the maker?
Steve
 
This thread demonstrates why it is impossible to achieve perfection. There are at least as many definitions of perfection as there are people.
The best a maker can hope for is to do the best he can with his tools, training, talent, and desire. Some will be very happy with results that would nauseate me, my efforts would nauseate others. Add to the mix the zeitgeist of the time, what may appear beautiful to the majority today may not in the future.(maybe the near future!)
There will never be a standard by which everything else will be judged.

Do your best!
Alden
 
Even though I'm new at this particular venture I've always had an artistic streak in me since I was a kid. I also participated in a number or archery shoots at a competitive level. I feel to a degree that "perfection" in anything man made is a bit of an illusion. Nothing that is done by a person can really ever be "perfect", hence the reason one thing always referred to as "human error". In anything that is created by someone, whether it's a knife, a drawing, painting, etc. There will always be something that can be done better.

You can give a knife design to several makers of varying degrees from someone making their first up to a master smith. If everyone makes the knife to the best of their ability is that considered "perfection"? If so what happens if you run that exact same test again with the same participants 5 years later? Everyone who did it again is likely going to make a "better" knife wouldn't you think? Reason being is everyone will naturally have more skill and better abilities.

As an avid archer try and look at it from this perspective. A "perfect" round in archery (or any shooting spot) is hitting the bullseye every single time for a specified number of arrows. But when you think about it, is that really perfection? Technically perfection is what machines do. There are actual shooting machines that can put the same arrow in the same HOLE every single shot. That is considered perfection, when everything is done exactly the same way every single time or to exact tolerances EVERY single time.... That's perfection. Humans simply can't do it, we can't replicate what machines do, that's why the term "human error" came about :D.

A person, no matter how skilled will ever be able to make something out of metal to the exact tolerances that a machine can do. Maybe what you're getting at here is where is the line drawn between "maker" and "programmer"?
 
Fletch, I'll take issue with the statement that machines deliver perfection every time. They don't. They are capable of delivering precision every time, but to my way of thinking perfection is as much about working with the characteristics of the materials at hand as it is about precision.

Consider Numbers' example of the "radii and curves of the pearl and damascus inlays". Is there any such thing as an absolutely perfect piece of pearl, let alone a group of perfect pearl inlay pieces? Likewise, is any piece of damascus really "perfect"?

At a slightly deeper level, is it preferable to have "perfect" pieces of these materials so you can get every line and every sparkle just so, or to utilize the natural sparkles and slightly irregular patterns to add interest to the design? For most people, irregular patterns are more interesting than absolutely precise repeating patterns.

For my own part, I accept that materials are not perfect, especially the natural materials, and believe that perfection is attained by integrating the irregularities of the materials into the design (even if the methods and means of doing so would seem "imperfect" if you were working with absolutely regular and perfect materials).

- Greg
 
As a maker, for me the perfect knife would be the one that exactly matches the vision of that knife when I created it in my mind. I don't know if I'll ever be able to do this.

As a collector, I've seen knives that I thought were perfect because the design and materials appealed to me in such a way that I wouldn't change anything, even if I could, because it reflects the maker just right. I don't think that the tolerances in the fit and finish need to exact, but just be sufficient to not distract from what the maker was trying to achieve. (I will say that for me to not be distracted, the fit needs to be to a very high tolerance, but it is definitely achievable by hand.)
 
tryppyr said:
Fletch, I'll take issue with the statement that machines deliver perfection every time. They don't. They are capable of delivering precision every time, but to my way of thinking perfection is as much about working with the characteristics of the materials at hand as it is about precision.
Click to expand...

Agreed, i used the wrong terminology there. I was going kind of lumping precision and perfection in the same category. My point being that, assuming a machine is properly calibrated and it's capable of working in "x" in terms of accuracy. It will maintain that level of accuracy in ways that a human is not really capable of doing time and time again. However having a machine put the same arrow in the same hole shot after shot is still perfection in my book :D
 
... A machine can't do what a human can do!

Chasing "perfection" is self defeating...

(Me playing my ukulele to Floyd): :)

Welcome to the machine
Where have you been?
It's alright we know where you've been
You've been in the pipeline
Filling in time
Provided with toys and scouting for boys
You brought a guitar to punish your ma
And you didn't like school
And you know you're nobody's fool
So welcome to the machine

Welcome my son
Welcome to the machine
What did you dream?
It's alright we told you what to dream
You dreamed of a big star
He played a mean gituar
He always ate in the Steak Bar
He loved to drive in his Jaguar
So welcome to the Machine
 
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"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." As stated earlier, there are many meanings or definitions to "perfection". Having said that, here is my interpretation. To be "perfect" means to be measured against a standard. All "bulleyes" in a shoot, 5 knives made and examined by a board of "experts" for fit and finish and tested against a set of criteria. What is perfection then? By definition it is the lack of inperfection/s. So if a dagger is made and is pleasing to the creator is it perfect, or does the assemetry seen by another make it not so. Is a machine perfect .... no. Can it produce things more repeatably then man? Depends. I used to be a machinst .... could I make things perfect? I could definatley make things to meet spec. I do not seek prefection, but I do seek to improve my skills, so that to me the things I make end up closer to how I invisioned them. "They joy is in the Journey."
 
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