Cheap knives

[jmarston]

I did not read the whole thread but here is my opinion.

As of recent, I have found much more joy in hunting for and purchasing old knives at pawn shops and antique stores. Slip joints can often be had for cheap and I love restoring them back to performance. Regrinding and reprofiling blades, tuning the walk and talk, bringing life back into something that somebody gave up.

The other side of what I am into these days is taking new, inexpensive but quality steel knives and again tuning and modifying the. to get as much performance out of them as I can. My current camp and hunting knives are modified Old Hickory 8" slivers. Cut down,ground, convexed,etc. I can get a lot of fun out of them for a 20 dollar bill.

I do love the GECs , the Cases but living in remote northern Canada makes these knives very expensive for me. Often 80 dollars for case and double that for GECs by the time they come through my door. I cannot afford, nor does it interest me to have those funds tied up in a single knife that I may or may not have to modify anyways. They sure look nice though.

 

[Modoc ED]

Very well stated

Wow!! Two thumbs up huh? The only thing I've ever given two thumbs up to was a gal I ran across in Hong Kong, when I was a young sailor. She was Chinese made and very durable. Nicely put together too.

Chinese knives are here to stay and they're a good starting point for guys/gals that are new to knife collecting. As with anything else, you'll sometimes run across a slug but of all the Rough Rider and Colt Brand Chinese made knives I've bought for nephews, friends, and others, I've not run across that.

 

[Dean51]

I only have two thumbs.

Wow!! Two thumbs up huh? The only thing I've ever given two thumbs up to was a gal I ran across in Hong Kong, when I was a young sailor. She was Chinese made and very durable. Nicely put together too.

Chinese knives are here to stay and they're a good starting point for guys/gals that are new to knife collecting. As with anything else, you'll sometimes run across a slug but of all the Rough Rider and Colt Brand Chinese made knives I've bought for nephews, friends, and others, I've not run across that.

 

[deltaboy]

Looking for them is a lot of fun!

 

[supratentorial]

Well stated. However, unfortunately, the opposite has happened. Not only are enough people buying Chinese knives, the majority of sales of traditional patterns at this time are of knives of Chinese origin targeted specifically at the American market. The remaining American companies have recognized that in order to compete for a share of the market, they must emphasize higher quality (at greater cost) over greater quantity (and lower cost), which narrows the number of items produced and sold by them substantially.

It will be interesting to see, especially for those of us who prefer to buy American, whether our American companies will find avenues to compete in ways that expand the market base for their products. One would hope that at some point there would be an attempt to compete for some of the market share now dominated by inexpensive imports, perhaps in the form of a line of an entry level line of American made knives made with higher quality materials but a bit less attention to fit and finish along the lines of Queen's Workhorse series or Case's Workman series.

Three thumbs up

 

[Will Power]

Interesting thread and good range of perceptions/experiences.

I don't like bad knives....poor finish, irritating issues etc.

Inexpensive knives can be admirable and useful, I'm sure we all have a 'cheap sweetheart' or two stowed away that defies explanation. Getting any knife that you like using is a success in itself, but.... In all honesty the knives that have annoyed or disappointed me most are usually the ones that cost the most and certainly should not have been displaying build faults or unpleasant issues at all. Petrol (gas) stations don't sell knives here but I get the point, I think sometimes people buy cheap knives or go for ridiculous (and not always cheap priced) products on the net as a kind of triumph of hope over experience not so many are immune either.

Inexpensive and satisfying, great. Cheap and nasty, gross. Overpriced and over-rated, infuriating

 

[Bartleby]

Very well stated

Three thumbs up

Many thanks to you both!

 

[stlbob]

I agree CHEAP and inexpensive are two different things..Pakistani steel is still soft and if they get the heat treat right its a major event..NOW the other guys...China made knives have really come a long long way..I have to reevaluate my disposable income i could use for knives,it is a 10th of what it was..Now silly things like gas,food and house payment chew up more than they used to.So i had to do something different,and a friend pushed this snowball down the hill.After he sent me a 'great ' Chinese knife..Well made,centered,good steel i was so impressed i had to know more.And after wasting some money on true junk i finally found the gems buried in the coal..There are hundreds of well made ( as good as anything you can buy outside of custom work or the super high end stuff ) knives of all styles.I am a huge fan of Karambit and Balisong knives and this places has a huge selection with very very few duds.Just spend some quality time with Google and You tube and you will be way ahead,you will know what you need to before you buy..Once again this is just ME and my .02

 

[Bartleby]

I had not been giving much thought to Case's offerings until I was responding to this thread. Case has increased their offerings of handle materials in the Sodbuster line quite a bit since the last time I had a look at one. I ordered up a rough black stainless Sodbuster Jr earlier today, and am looking forward to its arrival.

 

[deltaboy]

https://flic.kr/p/23LKied


These RR are great! Both Under 15 bucks !

 

[Bartleby]

These RR are great! Both Under 15 bucks !

Two knives for $7.50 each, or $30 for the pair?

 

[deltaboy]

Pair for 30 with shipping!

 

[Bartleby]

Pair for 30 with shipping!

Sounds like a deal. I tried one of the whittlers for a while when they first started making them. The secondary blades were both too thin and too brittle to work for detailing in wood for me. Have they made the secondary blades a bit stouter on the whittler more recently? I might give one another try at some point if the blades are a bit thicker than on the example I had.

 

[Amir Fleschwund]

I'm still ticked that Camillus and Schrade, Queen, and others got bankrupted by people buying Chinese knives.

I still have the deep scars on the back of my index finger where the big, burly, rugged-looking Chinese Gerber locker failed. At my age, I'm done buying cheap. And as long as I can still go on the internet and find a TL29 for half the price of a Chinese knife, why bother?

No knock on those who buy them, and I still enjoy looking at them. But I'll vote with my dollars whenever possible.

 

[Bartleby]

I'm still ticked that Camillus and Schrade, Queen, and others got bankrupted by people buying Chinese knives.

Agreed, except that people were still buying up their products right up until they closed their doors. Camillus and Imperial Schrade ownership closed shop and sold their names rather than re-investing in their physical plant, and resolving issues with labor relations over the years. Much more like the current situation at Utica/Kutmaster (seldom heard about on the here in the forums). I am not certain what is going on at Queen, it may also be a victim of mis-management as has been posted elsewhere. Hopefully they will be able to turn things around. I am joining you in voting with my dollars, looking forward to the arrival of my American made Case Sodbuster.

 

[supratentorial]

Agreed, except that people were still buying up their products right up until they closed their doors. Camillus and Imperial Schrade ownership closed shop and sold their names rather than re-investing in their physical plant, and resolving issues with labor relations over the years. Much more like the current situation at Utica/Kutmaster (seldom heard about on the here in the forums). I am not certain what is going on at Queen, it may also be a victim of mis-management as has been posted elsewhere. Hopefully they will be able to turn things around. I am joining you in voting with my dollars, looking forward to the arrival of my American made Case Sodbuster.

Queen has closed its doors more than once. Case has also previously closed its doors. And they are just a couple of many examples of competition with cheap imports leading to bankruptcy.

100+ years ago, it was efforts led by William Rockwell (Miller Bros) and others who persuaded legislators to protect American cutlery industry.

What's new is those protections are gone and social media makes it easier to target consumers. How many of these small hobby dealers or large distributors of Rough Riders have bought Bladeforums dealer memberships? None? Facebook and Youtube are also used as free advertising. On this forum, I recall someone posting for suggestions in the $100 price range for a US made knife and one of the first recommendations was a Rough Rider. No doubt that this type of advertising on social media has an impact on consumers and the knife industry. Nobody would take that responsibility, of course.

 

[Bartleby]

100+ years ago, it was efforts led by William Rockwell and others who persuaded legislators to protect American cutlery industry.

Very true. This had its intended effect against the competition from the cutlery industry of Sheffield, but they were not producing in anywhere near the quantity that the American factory system once afforded, a result of the city's protectionist guild practices. If traditional knives were still produced in this country in numbers that are similar to those being brought in, a tariff might work. The trend in American production, with the exception perhaps of Case, seems to be smaller quantity, more hand labor, higher cost. Sounds a lot like Sheffield's solution to the American tariffs of the 1890's.

How many of these small hobby dealers or large distributors of Rough Riders have bought Bladeforums dealer memberships? None? Facebook and Youtube are also used as free advertising. On this forum, I recall someone posting for suggestions in the $100 price range for a US made knife and one of the first recommendations was a Rough Rider. No doubt that this type of advertising on social media has an impact on consumers and the knife industry. Nobody would take that responsibility, of course.

Also agreed, it is unfortunate that more manufacturers don't have forums here. I greatly enjoyed the Schrade Manufacturers forum when it was lively, prior to it becoming the Schrade Collector's forum. There is a lot if information, now historical there from when Schrade closed. The same may be said of the Camillus Collector forum. The Sodbuster I have coming was $25 shipped, but Case does make some upscale ones for three times the cost, still well under the $100 mark you mention.

 

[supratentorial]

Very true. This had its intended effect against the competition from the cutlery industry of Sheffield, but they were not producing in anywhere near the quantity that the American factory system once afforded, a result of the city's protectionist guild practices. If traditional knives were still produced in this country in numbers that are similar to those being brought in, a tariff might work. The trend in American production, with the exception perhaps of Case, seems to be smaller quantity, more hand labor, higher cost. Sounds a lot like Sheffield's solution to the American tariffs of the 1890's.

I didn't have Sheffield specifically in mind. The fledgling American industry didn't have the reputation of knives from Sheffield. There were both high end and low end knives from Europe. I had inexpensive knives in mind. From Germany in particular. The hearings are published on Google and make an interesting read. Some of the companies wanting tariffs on imports from Germany were actually importing knives from Germany as their low end and marketing their own knives as their high end. Buck and Boker are doing something similar with knives from China.

Also agreed, it is unfortunate that more manufacturers don't have forums here. I greatly enjoyed the Schrade Manufacturers forum when it was lively, prior to it becoming the Schrade Collector's forum. There is a lot if information, now historical there from when Schrade closed. The same may be said of the Camillus Collector forum. The Sodbuster I have coming was $25 shipped, but Case does make some upscale ones for three times the cost, still well under the $100 mark you mention.

Look forward to seeing the new knife.

 

[Bartleby]

Some of the companies wanting tariffs on imports from Germany were actually importing knives from Germany as their low end and marketing their own knives as their high end.

Very true. In this case, I was referring more to the low end Barlow patterns from Sheffield that could not compete with the cheap American factory made version produced my Russell. Indeed, as you quite rightly point out, it seems that the American cutlery industry has always had something of a tension between imports and domestic production. Part of that initially was perhaps more the result of extended family connections that transcended national boarders was the case with the Kastor family and their German workforce at Camillus.

Buck and Boker are doing something similar with knives from China.

In both cases one would think that the sales of the low end knives allows them to continue to hold on to (in a way subsidizing as "loss leaders") market share, which would be lost to others. Since we are thinking about historical precedents, it is odd that the demand for lower cost goods seems to inevitably lead to overlooking the conditions that people making the items were often forced to work in, especially at the low end of the industry. The conditions that once existed in the sweatshops of my native New York, or the conditions of the workers in the cutlery industry in Sheffield which led to Marx's writings trying to help the working man (writings which of course had horrific results later on in the 20th century), seem to have been continued unabated elsewhere. This is no doubt the reason that it has always been quite a moral dilemma not to mention a sore spot in friendly discussion, and is rightly to be avoided.

The hearings are published on Google and make an interesting read.

What was the title you searched under? It sounds like a very good read indeed. Thanks!

 

[supratentorial]

Here's a link to a hosted copy of a document that I cut out from a bigger volume to make it more manageable. The source on Google books should pop up if you search the title. It was fun to read actual dialog from some of the biggest names in the cutlery industry. I also learned that "polished mark side" was abbreviated as "PMS"

There's some interesting discussion from some very well known names in the hearings before the Tariff Act of 1921. I cut out a small section from Google books...

http://docdro.id/EupxQ3t