Cheaper Steels the new Trend?

UltraSteele

UltraSteele

Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
163
As a longtime knife enthusiast, I've been watching as the knife industry gets better and better steels to market. Back when I first got into knives, there was 440 (That's all, no 440A, 440C) and AUS8 , and only custom or specialty makers used anything else.

Now I'm seeing a different trend; major manufacturers are turning to... cheap steel for their product lines. Many of us heard the stir in this forum when Cold Steel began advertising its 420 and 440 blades, which many of us considered qiute a step backward from thier AUS8 and Carbon V.

Now Columbia River is making thier knives with AUS4?

Go back in time 5 years or so and you won't find any steel chart with AUS4. Even AUS6 was considered and entry level steel. Now we have an even LOWER standard?

Who's gonna buy a blade with AUS4, a RockwellC of "55-57?" Yes they are cool designs... but at what price?

I'm sorry- Is anyone else surprised by this?
 
55-57 HRC sounds like plenty for some uses - chefs, butchers, etc. sharpen their knives all the time - all the expensive (and allegedly good, so a chef friend of mine claims) stainless "kitchen" knives are exactly in that hardness range. Could it be because they are less likely to chip on bones and have fairly thin blade ?
 
No I'm not surprised. But you named 2 companies that aim at the lower end of the knife market. Not all companies are goiing that direction.
 
My guess is that it is to keep costs down. With so many cheap knock offs out there, the bigger and better manufacturers are feeling the pinch.

Paul
 
again, you're talking about CRKT. From my experience, CRKT and Kershaw market to a more budget, entry-level audience.

Benchmade, Camillus, Spyderco, Microtech, SRK are all doing well and using excellent steels. Yes benchmade came out with a bunch of lower-quality fixed blades, but their folders are still top-of-the-line.
 
maybe all the people who dont care or dont know will buy the bad steel and leave all the good steel for us to fetishise over ;) mmm so shiny
 
I think it has to do with costs to manufacture and market but it may be related to other factors. Wear and tear on equipment could also fit into the equation.

It is probably known that the majority of the buying public don't use their knives for much more than opening packages or cutting tape or some other such light task so the knife companies figure the steel they are using will perform well enough to fit in pretty much unnoticed in most pockets and life styles.

As long as there are companies like Spyderco that still use 'premium' steels I'm sticking with them for my personal carry knives. It was bad enough to settle for the 420HC steels but the latest trend may not go over and then again it may do just fine and continue.

In truth when you stop to think about it for a guy like me that maintains his edge pretty much on a daily basis anyway, you can use pretty much any steel for a blade from a very nominal edge holder to a super edge holder. The difference for me would be stropping my edge a few times while carving hard wood after 10 or 15 minutes with a nominal edge holder vs stropping it a few times every 30 minutes with a super edge keeper. So, in a nut shell both can be made sharp but one may need more attention to keep it that way.

Perhaps my neighbor is a good example of a cross section view of society. He showed me his Kershaw Scallion the other night and asked me if I could install the new torsion bar in it for him. Now, this guy is a hunter. I see him every deer season with a big buck in his garage. The consumate outdoorsman so to speak. But this Kershaw had the lamest edge I think I've ever seen. I wouldn't be caught dead with a knife that dull but he was perfectly happy with it and thinks it is one of the better knives he has owned. Truthfully they are nice, I have one too but his needed sharpened and bad. I asked him if he wanted me to sharpen it for him while I had it and he said, and I quote, " Oh, I don't think it needs sharpening yet it cuts just fine for me." Go figure. To each his own I guess.
 
UltraSteele said:
Faramir-

These kives are not marketed towards, nor would many use them as, food prep knives.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is true - I was only replying to the part that said

Who's gonna buy a blade with AUS4, a RockwellC of "55-57?"
Click to expand...

I should have been more specific to avoid the confusion, although it was kinda obvious from my reply that I didn't mean to imply that anybody would use CRKT M16 something or other as their main chef's knife :o :eek:
 
Pretty much was STR said. It's cost-cutting and many people won't notice the difference.

It's a sad thing that most products with the widest distribution and highest sales tend to be of mediocre, even bad quality due to the cost cutting measures designed to increase profits and allow the company to sell at a lower price.

It reminds me of a discussion I had on Usenet, someone pointed out that candy bars just aren't like they used to be. Companies use artificial flavors because they're cheaper than natural flavors. You have a lot of milk fat being used in place of cocoa butter.

Consumers "in the know" will seek out the better or the best products though.
 
ayzianboy said:
again, you're talking about CRKT. From my experience, CRKT and Kershaw market to a more budget, entry-level audience.

Benchmade, Camillus, Spyderco, Microtech, SRK are all doing well and using excellent steels. Yes benchmade came out with a bunch of lower-quality fixed blades, but their folders are still top-of-the-line.
Click to expand...

Um, Camillus?
 
It isn't a new trend. Makers of cheap mass produced knives, use cheap steels. Most people don't know or care what kind of steel is used, so there is no reason for the manufacturers to use a better grade.
 
Lil Timmy said:
It isn't a new trend. Makers of cheap mass produced knives, use cheap steels. Most people don't know or care what kind of steel is used, so there is no reason for the manufacturers to use a better grade.
Click to expand...

Although they may notice how the steel performs depending upon how they use the knife. But they may not know what better is.
 
Is the AUS4 any worse than 420HC or 420J2? Too bad, though, that CRKT had to go from bad to worse (AUS6 to AUS4).
 
I dont think the various CRKT or any others companies
are doing anything wrong or unethical by using cheaper
steels. What most people seem to purposely be leaving
out are that these companies are still turning out knives
with premium (steel of the week) steels. Most of the major
companies do it. Benchmade, Spyderco (aus6), Buck, Kershaw
Cammilus and so on. Sure CRKT uses aus4, but they also have
higher grade steels. The are trying (like all the others)
to have an offering to all consumer levels. Its not a new
thing. In Al-Mars early days, most of their knives were
aus6 (cleverly named 'am6'). They were expensive (overpriced)
but people knew the knives, equated price with quality and raved
about the performance of 'am6' until they figured out it was
aus6. Many (not all) people that even consider themselves
'knife folks' wont know the difference either. I have seen so
many knife types rave about there high dollar custom in the latest
steel. They keep it for 6 months talking about how useful it is
and a big part of the time if you get to look at it, it is quite
apparent it has never been used.

So what is the companies offer cheap steel for cheap knives.
Some people want a 20-30 dollar knife. Plenty of your wal-mart'
type knife buyers get a knife to use hard. I have known people
like mechanics who use then for scrapers, screwdrivers, pry-bars
and stuff like that with no worries if the blade bends a little
or breaks the tip off. There are not many expensive knives that would
do much better either. There are plenty of threads of peoples
high-dollar Spydies and such that complain about broken tips from
dropping or other reasons. Most people would probably be a little
more upset at breaking a 150 dollar knife than a 20 dollar one.

Next time you speak out against a company and imply that they
are chaning to a cheaper steel, be sure and include all the information.
CRKT along with Benchmade, Kershaw, Cammilus and the rest still have
plenty of high end offerings, but you would never know it from reading
your thread. Camillus who is known around the forums has been known
for offering custom designs in top-steels and talonite. One of their
long time popular offerings though has been some 15-20 dollar boot-knife
in a cheap steel, should we blast them and imply they are going down hill?
 
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Reactions: STR
ayzianboy said:
again, you're talking about CRKT. From my experience, CRKT and Kershaw market to a more budget, entry-level audience.
Click to expand...
You do not know much about Kershaw. Here are a lists of Kershaw firsts:
  • Assisted Opener
  • Polished G10 Scales
  • Crucible CPM Steels
  • Sculpted Titanium Scales
  • Vault Lock
  • Stud Lock
  • MIM Blades

The high end knives designed by Ken Onion are some of the best factory knives ever made:
  • Random Task
  • Mini Task
  • Boa
  • Avalanche
  • Whisper
  • Bump (Frame lock)
  • Bump (Stud lock)
  • Offset (Stud lock)

Kershaw has knives for every budget.
 
UltraSteele, if you visit CRKT's site you will see that the better steels (AUS8 and 154CM) are used in quite many of their offerings. The AUS4 and 6 are used mostly with their zytel handled budget price knives.

sak_collector and STR, good job explaining it, thanks.
 
The low end Chinese knives have moved price points even lower than for Pakistani crud. You can find knives for a couple bucks in a lot of places. There is a volume market out there at extremely low price points (largely teenagers). AUS4 should be a step up for them. I would not equate AUS4 to 420-J2, it is more like 420HC. The toughness that it probably has is better for this market than a steel with better edge holding. They will use them to pry, chisel and to turn screws.

Back 40 years ago a buck or two would by you a Mercator cat knife. It would have been fairly tough since it had a Solingen carbon steel blade. It was probably hardened to the low 50's RC. I got good service out of several of those. I broke the stainless steel varients that I found.
 
I’m not surprised that many of the large manufacturers are using cheaper steel. Knife nuts are a tiny proportion of the market, and the companies in question are interested in tapping the rest of the buying public. A cool looking knife made out of mediocre steel will sell to an awful lot of people who wouldn’t spend money on quality materials.
 
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