Check My Plans?

[SteveGallo]

Hi Guys,

I've been researching bladesmithing for a few years now, and am finally in a position where I have the space and funds to move forward. I've also managed to convince my wife that I (probably) won't kill myself, which helps.

What I'm hoping for in this thread is to lay out all the plans I have and basically see if anyone can spot major flaws or problems that I haven't thought of, before I make any permanent moves. I'm a bit of an amateur chef, so the goal of me getting into this hobby is to eventually smith some decent kitchen knives.

Here's what I've got:
JF #1 venturi with LP kit
5 lbs satanite - Ideally some day I'll use any leftovers for Hamons
1/4 pint ITC-100
Enough wool for 2 inches
Hard firebrick floor
This air compressor as my shell http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/87/03/50/30/0087035030003_500X500.jpg

Plan is to sand down the tank, cut 2 doors, weld on a tube with set screws to hold the burner, line, mortar and cure, ITC-100, high temp black paint on exterior.


An anvil is where I'm really lacking. I've read that it's all about the weight under the hammer and the quality of the surface. I have 3 ft of I beam; my plan is to stand it up vertically, weld something like a 1"x3"x3" block to one end as the striking surface, then sink the other end in a bucket of concrete and bury that in the ground or in a stump. I know that's pretty rag-tag but I can't seem to find any reasonable anvils anywhere as of yet.


I've decided that I'm going to skip mystery steel and just order from NJ steel baron or another reputable company. I'm hoping this will take a lot of the variables out of what I'm sure will already be a very difficult first run. My goal is either an 8" French/German chef's knife, or a 210x42 mm Gyuto. I feel like this is way out of my league as a first effort, but I don't mind scrapping a few pieces of metal as a learning experience.

For metal, A) I need something relatively easy to work, would prefer higher carbon as I don't mind taking care of knives, and ideally something I can easily HT and quench at home with no fancy gadgets. B) I do not know what thickness and width I should be getting when I order steel, given what I'm trying to make.

Out of the following, which would you guys suggest? Again, looking for beginner friendly, easy to HT, relatively suitable for chef's knife: 15n20, 1084, 52100, 5160, 80CRV2


For tools, I'm planning on using an angle grinder w/cutoff to chop the stock down to a rough shape and forge from there. I've got a good hammer, but will have to use vice grips until I can make tongs. I have some good whetstones right now, and know that I'll need some good files. I also have an assortment of basic hand tools. Is there anything else I'm absolutely going to need to get the job done?


Sorry for the length, and thanks for the help!

 

[Willie71]

1084 or 15n20 would be the steels for home heat treat and kitchen knives. I haven't tried 80crv2 for a kitchen knife. 15n20 is available in thin stock. I get 2" wide which is fine for everything excepting the largest chefs knives. Thin is better for kitchen knives, but start with .090" which will be more forgiving in heat treat starting out than the thinner stock. Make a paring knife first, then a utility knife,and then make the larger knife. You will be hooked. One of the first knives I made was a chefs knife, and it took me three months with a 1x30 grinder and cheap sandpaper. Buy proper sandpaper!!!

You might want to try stock removal first, than move to forging. Its a few less variables to worry about. Grind the edge down to .010" before sharpening, and sharpen at 15degrees per side on the first few. You can go thinner and finer as you get more confident, and get good control of the heat treat.

Stacy does a lot of kitchen knives. I'm sure he will be along with suggestions.

 

[SteveGallo]

1084 or 15n20 would be the steels for home heat treat and kitchen knives. I haven't tried 80crv2 for a kitchen knife. 15n20 is available in thin stock. I get 2" wide which is fine for everything excepting the largest chefs knives. Thin is better for kitchen knives, but start with .090" which will be more forgiving in heat treat starting out than the thinner stock. Make a paring knife first, then a utility knife,and then make the larger knife. You will be hooked. One of the first knives I made was a chefs knife, and it took me three months with a 1x30 grinder and cheap sandpaper. Buy proper sandpaper!!!

You might want to try stock removal first, than move to forging. Its a few less variables to worry about. Grind the edge down to .010" before sharpening, and sharpen at 15degrees per side on the first few. You can go thinner and finer as you get more confident, and get good control of the heat treat.

Stacy does a lot of kitchen knives. I'm sure he will be along with suggestions.

Thank you for the reply, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Do I need sandpaper if I use files+whetstones?

As far as stock removal, I already have the forge parts and I don't really have the equipment for stock removal I think. Also, I know there's no real benefit to either one but personally I've always wanted to work the hot steel.

Thanks again.

 

[Willie71]

You can forge by all means. You will have to grind/file/sand after forging anyway. If forging, you will need to go through grain refinement cycles after forging. Getting a pyrometer and k type thermocouple from auberins will allow you to monitor your forge temps. When forging, the steel will undergo grain growth, resulting in a more brittle and less sharpenable steel. Heating to 1650f, then cooling to black, reheating to 1500f, the cooling to black, heating to 1400f, then cooling to black will refine the grain. Both 15n20 and 1084 heat treat at 1500f, quenched in warmed canola oil.

Re: sandpaper. You can do it with whetstones, but most people here use rhynowet sandpaper from supergrit. Look up Nick Wheeler's hand sanding 101 video. Its excellent. He has done a series of videos on forging and heat treat in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...oject-)-(-UPDATED-CUTTING-amp-FORGING-VIDEOS)

There is a lot of good info in the stickies. It would be a good idea to start reading there, and ask specific questions for clarification. This is a very helpful community, and people are more willing to help out if you do some legwork first. Since you actually had a plan, you have shown you have started your own learning :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:.

 

[SteveGallo]

You can forge by all means. You will have to grind/file/sand after forging anyway. If forging, you will need to go through grain refinement cycles after forging. Getting a pyrometer and k type thermocouple from auberins will allow you to monitor your forge temps. When forging, the steel will undergo grain growth, resulting in a more brittle and less sharpenable steel. Heating to 1650f, then cooling to black, reheating to 1500f, the cooling to black, heating to 1400f, then cooling to black will refine the grain. Both 15n20 and 1084 heat treat at 1500f, quenched in warmed canola oil.

Re: sandpaper. You can do it with whetstones, but most people here use rhynowet sandpaper from supergrit. Look up Nick Wheeler's hand sanding 101 video. Its excellent. He has done a series of videos on forging and heat treat in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...oject-)-(-UPDATED-CUTTING-amp-FORGING-VIDEOS)

There is a lot of good info in the stickies. It would be a good idea to start reading there, and ask specific questions for clarification. This is a very helpful community, and people are more willing to help out if you do some legwork first. Since you actually had a plan, you have shown you have started your own learning :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:.

Temp monitoring set up is out of the budget for now, but something I'll consider in the future. My plan was to take the steel past magnetic as a guideline and use canola as suggested.

I'll pick up some sandpaper and watch that video when I'm home from work, thanks.

All I'm wondering now is if my anvil plan will work out, or if there's something better I can try.

 

[12345678910]

Temp monitoring set up is out of the budget for now, but something I'll consider in the future. My plan was to take the steel past magnetic as a guideline and use canola as suggested.

I'll pick up some sandpaper and watch that video when I'm home from work, thanks.

All I'm wondering now is if my anvil plan will work out, or if there's something better I can try.

an H or I or W beam has very little mass compared to it's size

Try solid square, rectangular, or round bar

4x4 square x 4 feet long is 230 pounds ish and the mass is directly below the striking area

Look up post and sea robin anvils



Try asking at scrap yards, pay the scrap price for steel it's a tenth of new price

try 4140 hard

or forklift tines or simething like that.

 

[Willie71]

I'm still searching for an economical anvil. I have a bunch of 1" steel plate I was going to weld together, and a piece of 3/4" 1050 for the top, but I can't figure out a way to heat treat it. I may use hard facing welding rod rather than heat treating.

There's an agricultural scrap yard about 40 min from me. Maybe I'll call them next week.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I'm still searching for an economical anvil. I have a bunch of 1" steel plate I was going to weld together, and a piece of 3/4" 1050 for the top, but I can't figure out a way to heat treat it. I may use hard facing welding rod rather than heat treating.

There's an agricultural scrap yard about 40 min from me. Maybe I'll call them next week.

If you can find a short length of Rail Road tie and have the face surface ground and bolt it into a large tree stump. I have seen folks forge on these simple and cheap anvils, I see them for sale on ebay sometimes.

 

[SteveGallo]

an H or I or W beam has very little mass compared to it's size

Try solid square, rectangular, or round bar

4x4 square x 4 feet long is 230 pounds ish and the mass is directly below the striking area

Look up post and sea robin anvils



Try asking at scrap yards, pay the scrap price for steel it's a tenth of new price

try 4140 hard

or forklift tines or simething like that.

Alright, thanks for the advice. Maybe I can put the beam inside of some tubing for even more mass if I can't find a solid piece?

Either way I'll call around some scrap yards.

Edit: What are people's thoughts about buying a bench block and welding that to a mass of mystery steel? I was thinking of buying this: http://www.amazon.com/Jewelers-Solid-Steel-Bench-Block/dp/B004JLX3EG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1398864956&sr=8-3&keywords=steel+bench+block#productDetails and welding it to the I beam I had or the biggest hunk of metal I could find at a scrap yard.