China copies.. my thoughts

[marcinek]

Here's a very similar thread on the topic

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/970217-How-do-you-guys-feel-about-China-copies/page18?highlight=china

Pages and pages on the subject! Worth reading through for some background info/opinion! :thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

There's been awful lot of blatant copies of a certain Alan Wood design doing the rounds for years now, produced by all sorts of manufacturers, and people are happy to buy them. Then again it's just a very simple design, which makes copying it just lazy knife-making in my book.

 

[Cassull]

In almost all respects I agree with the community here. Theft is theft, whether you admit it or try and hide it.

But that said, there are some $80 hindelels that are pretty sweet looking...

Know of any videos comparing the fake with the real so I'll know what to look for?

 

[A. G. Russell]

I guess what bothers me is how biased the issue can be. Take for example Kershaw's China-made knockoff of the old Buck design^.
Nobody accuses Kershaw of being a design thief. Why not? How is this not a stolen design?
I love Kershaw. I am not bashing the company. I am simply pointing out that all this fuss over design primacy is at best unrealistic.

If that knife looks like a Buck knife to you perhaps you need new glasses. It does not even look like the Puma that may have preceeded the Buck.

 

[LX_Emergency]

If that knife looks like a Buck knife to you perhaps you need new glasses. It does not even look like the Puma that may have preceeded the Buck.

I agree, different bolsters, different bladeshape, different handleshape. Just about all it's got in common is that it's a hollow grind, a lockback and that it has two bolsters and a wooden scale.

 

[Jack Black]

Not picking on anyone (I'm sure these are all very well-made knives), but they're just a random selection of the hundreds of blatant copies of Alan Woods design - a design he incidentally doesn't seem to rate that highly himself (see http://www.alanwoodknives.com/the-woodlore-knife-story.html). Was Alan Wood asked about these copies, or Ray Mears for that matter? Nobody is trying to improve this design from what I can see, just copy it, I reckon few people would even know why the knife even has that tiny half-guard (which most copies have) for example?

Despite my dislike of the way this knife is copied so unimaginatively, I certainly wouldn't be willing to pay the £500 sterling Ray Mears was asking for one of the Alan Wood knives the last time he was selling them. It's a simple, functional design, that's all. I also agree with Alan Wood, that as a design it has shortcomings. It makes a heck of a lot more sense than all the saw-back survival knives that flooded the market after Jimmy Lile produced his 'First Blood' knife, but I'd argue that the reason for the massive popularity of this knife is about the same reasons - fashion.

 

[Jack Black]

For another interesting take on the Woodlore knife, check out Lars Felt's (Ray's mentor) Survival Instructor's knife. But this has a drop point and a full-flat grind, much better in my opinion. Brusletto don't make the Gubben anymore, but it's a knife I recomended to Ray for his survival students and which he sold at his survival school (the pic isn't mine).

 

[goldie]

I have always hated knockoffs & copies,never owned one,never been a fan of them in any way, in any industry.its stealing,& its cheating the original designer & company.....

 

[Jack Black]

Be interested to hear what the many owners of Woodlore copies here, and those making them, have to say about the issue. Some of the companies making copies protect their own products very strictly.

 

[Minibear464]

In my opinion, many knife designs will emulate others that have came before them. It's inevitable when you consider how many designs there are. Every hawkbill knife will look similar to another one, and at times, too similar. I feel that as long as it isn't a copy of a patent or trademark (emerson wave, spyder hole), and the maker marks the knife honestly, then the knife is okay. A direct copy may not be ethical, but as long as the maker is honest about the knife, instead of copying a knife exactly and branding it so as to fool others, I feel it's okay.

 

[Jack Black]

In my opinion, many knife designs will emulate others that have came before them. It's inevitable when you consider how many designs there are. Every hawkbill knife will look similar to another one, and at times, too similar. I feel that as long as it isn't a copy of a patent or trademark (emerson wave, spyder hole), and the maker marks the knife honestly, then the knife is okay. A direct copy may not be ethical, but as long as the maker is honest about the knife, instead of copying a knife exactly and branding it so as to fool others, I feel it's okay.

How do you feel about the Spyderco (a company I've immense respect for BTW) Bushcraft for example? It's got the Spyderco trademark hole, but otherwise it's a blatant copy of another design, it's not just similar or intended for the same purpose - it's even made from the same steel. Maybe Spyderco made some sort of deal with Alan Wood/Ray Nears, but if that's the case, it's very much the exception to the rule. Of course there's nothing about the Woodlore knife that could be patented, other than the name perhaps, but this is a copy, a good quality one, but still a copy. Perhaps all these knives are designed as a tribute or homage, but is this knife really so special? While it's an OK design, the only thing special about it in my opinion, is that it's currently selling like hot cakes. That's the reason it is copied so shamelessly and on such a large scale.

(Not my pics again)

Oops, a few problems with this one.

 

[Jack Black]

I dare say it's an OK knife, but Condor even call their copy of Alan Woo's WOODLORE knife the BUSHLORE!!

 

[longbow]

A copy of a knife is one thing, I mean look at the Loveless dropped hunter design. Tons of folks copy that design. Some give credit to Loveless some don't. They don't for the most part try and pass it off as anything but though. Which to me is a good thing. However I do have a problem with off shore companies so plainly copying a design with the TM, you know CRK, Hinderer, etc.etc. That is wrong. Now for instance I have a copy of a CRK. Bought from an American vendor. Knife says S30V on the blade. It is larger proportionally than a CRK. Handle, blade length and depth top to bottom. And it is a thinner knife. BUT it is extremely well made. I have no problem with carrying this knife and I do and I use it as a beater and general type fishing knife and it functions beautifully.

I own a CRK and comparing the two, like I said the copy I have is generally the same in looks but different in build and size. I've also a NAVY brand knife I've owned for a few years that looks very much like a very famous Spyderco but no where on the knife does it mention Spyderco or anything like that. Great little knife with again generally the same shape but holding a real Spydie and this one together you can note differences although the same general shape. So I guess what I am saying is that you see this type of thing in everything today. From golf clubs to cars and everything in between. In my opinion if they don't try and pass it off as the genuine article and you know the difference I've no problem with it. It is when you enter that nebulous region on TM infringement etc. that things take a turn and I become concerned. keepem sharp

 

[Dagon]

How do you feel about the Spyderco (a company I've immense respect for BTW) Bushcraft for example? It's got the Spyderco trademark hole, but otherwise it's a blatant copy of another design, it's not just similar or intended for the same purpose - it's even made from the same steel. Maybe Spyderco made some sort of deal with Alan Wood/Ray Nears, but if that's the case, it's very much the exception to the rule. Of course there's nothing about the Woodlore knife that could be patented, other than the name perhaps, but this is a copy, a good quality one, but still a copy. Perhaps all these knives are designed as a tribute or homage, but is this knife really so special? While it's an OK design, the only thing special about it in my opinion, is that it's currently selling like hot cakes. That's the reason it is copied so shamelessly and on such a large scale.

(Not my pics again)

Oops, a few problems with this one.

The Spyderco Bushcraft is not a "blatant copy". It was developed in cooperation wih the UK bushcraft community. Clearly that community didnt want much changes from the well known design.

 

[djjonny]

There's a saying:
The bitterness of poor quality will be remembered long after the sweatness of a cheap price

 

[A. G. Russell]

You should understand that respect for knife design rights is a VERY recent thing. In the 1950s there were copies of the Dean Russell Canadian knife everywhere. In 1970 Schrade paid R W Loveless 1700 to design a knife for them and knifemakers began to feel that their designs had value. The small new companies like Spyderco and benchmade and a few no longer with us began to buy designs from handmade knifemakers and for the most part avoided ripping each other off. Once people began payiung for designs the world changed but culture in the Orient is not the same as ours and has always been dog eat dog. Our idea of knife design ownership has moved through Japan and into and pretty much through Taiwan but it has only begun to take root in China. Unlike the rest of the World where only the U. S. has more than a tiny handful of knife companies, China has man hundreds and they fight tooth and nail for business. It is going to take time, to change China in any way is an enormous job, but one worth doing.

 

[richard thurman]

if it is a clone I have no problem. but if it is a clone with there name on it and comes with a copy of there box too then I have a big time problem with it. there is a auction site that was putting up a buck switchblade and I told them it was a fake. they told me it was the real deal. bull shoot. I had bought the same thing. I can not buy a real buck 110/112 for $20.00 much less a switchblade one for that. when I bought them I didn’t relies that there name was on it. when I found out I would only sale them local and I made sure the person that was buying them know there where not the real deal and I refuse to buy any more of them.

 

[Jack Black]

The Spyderco Bushcraft is not a "blatant copy". It was developed in cooperation wih the UK bushcraft community. Clearly that community didnt want much changes from the well known design.

Well if you "do" bushcraft you just have to have a knife identical to that don't you?! The key thing for me is was Alan Wood (or Ray Mears) involved? Even if they were, it would STILL be an unimaginative copy, not a fake certainly, that's something very different, but it IS a copy. Not just the grind or the blade shape, but the handle, the rivets, and even the steel. I imagine that if you copied that copy exactly (complete with Spydie hole) you'd find yourself in hot water. Knife makers should be able to do better than simply follow the dictates of fashion.

 

[Dagon]

There was a well known UK designer involved in the spyderco bushcraft development process but I forgot his name.
In any case it is my experience with Spyderco that they are an ethical company in these matters.

 

[EricV]

Well if you "do" bushcraft you just have to have a knife identical to that don't you?! The key thing for me is was Alan Wood (or Ray Mears) involved? Even if they were, it would STILL be an unimaginative copy, not a fake certainly, that's something very different, but it IS a copy. Not just the grind or the blade shape, but the handle, the rivets, and even the steel. I imagine that if you copied that copy exactly (complete with Spydie hole) you'd find yourself in hot water. Knife makers should be able to do better than simply follow the dictates of fashion.

Do you really think the Mears/Wood design is so similar to the Spydie bushcraft? The handle shape is quite different, blade shape isn't spot on either. Not to mention that the design you seem so attached to is not very much unlike traditional Scandi blade shapes. Its an incredibly generic design, basically just a Mora bladeshape with a full tang.