Chinese Heat Treat Process???

[Bigfatts]

What a load of unadulterated tripe!

I tend to agree. Crap knives come out of China because companies want to sell them. Same as any other cheap product. We are such a small fraction of the knife buying world, I think sometimes we forget that and complain that every knife produced doesn't meet our criteria. But your mainstream American person doesn't care enough about a pocket knife to buy a good one, or maybe don't even know what would make a good knife, so they buy that Bear Grylls or Gerber or no name from Wal Mart and are *GASP* perfectly happy. It's not the manufacturer who is uninformed or uncaring, it's the average end consumer.

 

[stabman]

It's not the manufacturer who is uninformed or uncaring, it's the average end consumer.

That is some serious truth right there.

 

[ev13wt]

What a load of unadulterated tripe!

Maybe I over generalized a bit. But many "craftsmen" in China aren't from the trade but learn what to do.

I am not speaking out of my ass, I work in a company that actually produces metal parts (As well as PCBs) in China and have been there several times to go over processes that didn't work because of the statement I made.

I wish this were true. I'm as patriotic as the next guy, but have seen and bought so much garbage produced by American "craftsmen" that I know better. I had a custom handgun built by a renowned gunsmith. The barrel was tilted so much the gun couldn't be sighted in and there were clamp marks on the barrel as well, even though a proprietary finish was part of the package. It was returned and fixed, but I waited several weeks and ate return postage. It's perfect now, but I can't stand the "American craftsmanship" crap. I also worked in a factory in high school which made heavy machines for the US military. I saw more (important) corners cut than I could stomach. As a 16 year old kid I wanted to throw up when I thought of a serviceman using some of this stuff in combat. Had I known more then, I'd have reported the issues.

On average, I'd say you will probably get better stuff from the good ole' USA, but every country has slobs and everyone makes mistakes. Again, I'll say my Chinese and Taiwan CS knives are superb, as is my Rat 1. It is all about if the cat is watching the mice. How many timess have you driven passed these American craftsmen on local road crews leaning on shovels all day CS bought tons of Sharon Steel for their Carbon V (O170-6) and had an exacting procedure for it's processing in the USA. Once that was unavailable, they went to a superb Japanese SK-5 (Hitachi Blue?), had the work done overseas, and still maintained their practice of high QC and utilizing the best heat treat for the steel. I evaluate the company, not the country, but YMMV.

I never said American craftsmen are perfect, but those that care about our niche and produce in the good old DO care.

But I will agree that it boils down to the cat and the mice.

I tend to agree. Crap knives come out of China because companies want to sell them. Same as any other cheap product. We are such a small fraction of the knife buying world, I think sometimes we forget that and complain that every knife produced doesn't meet our criteria. But your mainstream American person doesn't care enough about a pocket knife to buy a good one, or maybe don't even know what would make a good knife, so they buy that Bear Grylls or Gerber or no name from Wal Mart and are *GASP* perfectly happy. It's not the manufacturer who is uninformed or uncaring, it's the average end consumer.

This is probably the truth condensed into a couple words.



I just want to be romantic believing that America is still number one with craftsmen that really care and put in the effort with customers that respect that and will buy American while paying what it's worth.

 

[Karda]

I just want to be romantic believing that America is still number one with craftsmen that really care and put in the effort with customers that respect that and will buy American while paying what it's worth.

If this were true, Walmart wouldn't be the monster conglomerate that it is.
Today we live in a disposable commodity society. Very little is made to last like the old products did.
As the older generations that remember a quality American made product decline, this fact will only get worse.
Most consumers today shop by price, not by value or quality.

 

[Divine_Madcat]

Most consumers today shop by price, not by value or quality.

This has only happened, because the "quality" things don't wind up being that much better in many ways. Take a very basic commodity like T-Shirts - having made note of the places my shirts come from, i can't honestly see a reason to buy American, at least in terms quality. If the US shirts are better than the Honduran, etc, i have no measurable way to know. But i do see when a shirt costs $5 vs $15 or more, and i see that $10+ savings being able to buy several days worth of food for my infant, which is more important in the long run.

Looking at it a different way - if an item X costs 50% less than item Y, but has at least more than 50% the lifespan of y (is usable for 3 years, as opposed to 5), then X is a better value in the long run (6 years of life vs 5 for the same price).

Sure, there are plenty of examples the other way two, can't deny that. I guess i am just saying, it really isn't as cut and dry as you make it sound..

 

[pnsxyr]

It really pisses me off that some of these knife makers claim to have good steel, and good construction yet are super mysterious with their production processes. If your going to claim to have good steel, and good hardware to build your knives, then have the balls to be more open about the production process like the REAL knife companies do. Its either a good knife, or it isn't, now which is it!!!!!!!!! It should be illegal to produce a knife with good materials just to screw up the heat treat, and then hand it off to your customers claiming that its a good blade. In the industrial world concerning Tool Steels, if a tool company produces a tool or part out of tool steel, and it breaks and gets someone hurt, They can have their A$$ handed to them in a lawsuit. companies that produce knives should be held to the same standard. Either make the knife up to par with your claims, or QUIT PRODUCING THE POS.

Should be illegal to waste resources with piss poor production standards. gripes my @$$

I do not have hard information on how various makers treat their steel, but I can tell you first-hand that my usage of the different knives has let me know who is and is not competent with heat treatments. I've had some knives from China with excellent heat treatments, and others with terrible ones. I agree AUS8 has potential. And 440C has tremendous potential if the heat treatment is good. Some makers do a great job with these steels, and others the polar opposite.

A maker can hide or promote what they are doing with their HT as much or as little as they want. I don't need to see a video or hear a report on heat treatment from knife makers from America, China, or any country for that matter. That's because they can't hide the outcome which is how well or how poorly the knife performs. And if a maker is doing a crappy heat treatment, with forums like this that information will get out quick.

Much like American products, locality of production doesn't really mean anything in terms of generalizations on quality. It's just as difficult to speak in generalized trends to most-or-all manufacturing in China as it is to speak on most-or-all manufacturing in America and that is because there are huge differences between companies, some of which are better at producing quality knives than others.

 

[pnsxyr]

If this were true, Walmart wouldn't be the monster conglomerate that it is.
Today we live in a disposable commodity society. Very little is made to last like the old products did.
As the older generations that remember a quality American made product decline, this fact will only get worse.
Most consumers today shop by price, not by value or quality.

I agree, but I think this is more pronounced with some types of commodities than it is with others. With knives, we have certainly seen this occur. There is a huge demand for cheap knives that sacrifice performance, quality, and longevity to make any and all possible gains in the value department. And today it's not unusual to hear about people who throw their knives away after a certain time of usage rather than sharpening them, caring for them, and up-keeping them. Years ago, a kitchen knife would be used and sharpened until there was no metal left to remove.

That makes it very difficult for America to be #1 in craftsmanship given market demands are going for a product built with a completely different purpose and mindset. Heck, it makes it hard for anyone to be #1 if the market demand does not want quality and/or is not willing to invest in it. In some cases, we have seen companies more or less change themselves to go from quality to quantity. No example is more pronounced than J.A. Hanckel here.

What's most interesting about this is how much of a difference a quality edged tool makes over a cheap one. Compared to something like a no-name vs. brand undershirt, it's a very pronounced difference.

 

[Lee48]

How did we get here? Probably started in the 1970s when the UAW and American automobile makers kept telling us that American made cars were the best on earth despite the fact that the things were unreliable, cost too much and used too much fuel. Americans soon discovered Hondas, Toyotas and Datsuns (AKA Nissans), bought them by the boatload and then the Japanese automakers began building cars more to the taste of Americans who realized these imports actually were some of the best built on earth. American consumers started to question why they should pay more for products that were clearly inferior and that attitude has evolved into the current concept of just buying the cheapest available.

 

[Big Mike]

No manufacturers reveal details of their HT Protocols.

Most consider it propriety information, and, though they might share some basic information, their cards are kept close to the vest.

More important to this discussion, do you think that manufacturer is really using AUS8, not some Chinese steel?



Big Mike

 

[Karambit777]

Yea I know that knife producers don't reveal their secret heat treat recipes per say, but good ones will at least touch on the subject, and then offer a warranty to back it up.

The reason I bought the Harrier was I was intrigued by the blade design. According to "supposed" survival expert Mykel Hawke, The Harrier is " the best folding knife their is" (his words, not mine). This knife originally sold for around the $50 dollar range, and their was no way I was going to pay that for a Chinese made blade, but SMKW are liquidating their Harrier inventory apparently (for some reason) so I guess the $10 they are selling them for is what they Truly have in them themselves.

I received mine, and first impression was ok I suppose. The lock up is solid, zero blade play (side to side, or front to back). The blade could use a sharpening, but the serrations are the aggressive type, and sharp.

My main pet peeve is that I have no clue who makes this knife. as for as I know their is no warranty,( I could be wrong), but the whole array of details that should be available to back up claims such as the "the best folding knife there is" is not there. The only details are who designed the knife, and the knife specs, AUS-8 SS, 440C hex screws, and high grade stainless liners, G10 scales. Other than that is a total mystery.

This knife is huge for a folder. It is about an inch longer than my BRKT Bravo 1.5. This is one of the reasons I wanted the knife was to have a huge tanto designed knife to carry from time to time to (for lack of better words) celebrate the new knife laws in Tennessee, (or lack of knife laws). I know it's a Chinese made knife, but it is a mean looking knife that seems solid. Youtubers are already saying they are batoning with it and such without issues.

I just feel that some of these manufactures overseas, or the companies overseeing them should be held to their claims of making such good products. If a company is going to use good steel and good hardware, then they should produce good products, and they should held to the standard they set for themselves by claiming "this is the best, or this is the strongest" or what-not. I know its advertising, but in reality its either the truth, or its a bold face lie. there shouldn't be any grey areas in the world of making tools and knives IMO, it should be either black or white.

But I think I am going to make a vow to myself from this day forward to ONLY buy USA made knives and tools for the rest of my life, come hell or high water. Because if it ever comes hell or high water at least I know I will have a REAL knife or tool by my side, instead of a Chinese POS!

 

[Karambit777]

Suing Chinese manufacturers for producing a bad product? I'm sorry, this thread makes such little sense over all. It's riddled with generalization, assumption, and misinformation, ouch.

I never said anything about suing Chinese Manufactures. I made mention of how the industrial world has standards in which tools and parts are made concerning tool steels. And for the most part, generalizing, and assuming, is something that happens often on here I've noticed. Saying that I was implying on suing a Chinese manufacture, or anybody else for that matter is just a failure to comprehend words, on your part. ouch.


But I know I am just ranting in this thread, but the lack of standards for some of the Chinese knife produces just gets to me sometimes. But its my fault for buying their products. shame on me. But I do however have some good import knives. I have many USA made knives, but some imports as well. Some of my Buck knives for example are imports, and they are good. And they have a warranty to back up their claims. Which is how it should be. Enough of my ranting. I just wanted some info on how some of these mystery factories from China go about their Heat treating process. Especially the ones that are Nameless for the most part. The companies like Buck, SOG, and a few other US companies dictate the Quality control for their imports, so I am not too concerned with theirs. But Advice to myself, and everybody else. Buy USA knives. Not to knock companies like Fallkniven, or Victorinox since they hold themselves accountable to their personal claims as well.

 

[pnsxyr]

But I know I am just ranting in this thread, but the lack of standards for some of the Chinese knife produces just gets to me sometimes. But its my fault for buying their products. shame on me. But I do however have some good import knives. I have many USA made knives, but some imports as well. Some of my Buck knives for example are imports, and they are good. And they have a warranty to back up their claims. Which is how it should be. Enough of my ranting. I just wanted some info on how some of these mystery factories from China go about their Heat treating process. Especially the ones that are Nameless for the most part. The companies like Buck, SOG, and a few other US companies dictate the Quality control for their imports, so I am not too concerned with theirs. But Advice to myself, and everybody else. Buy USA knives. Not to knock companies like Fallkniven, or Victorinox since they hold themselves accountable to their personal claims as well.

Are there American standards for heat treatments? I know makers like Crucible, Carpenter, and Bohler make spec sheets that highlight how to and variances in time/temp to produce different performance properties. Is there a regulation in order for steels here to be called a certain name they see a certain HT or verification process? (I don't know much about the regulation aspects here to be honest)

 

[Karambit777]

I wouldn't say that there is " A common standard" in the heat treat process here in America, but the tried and true American knife companies have their own personal standards when it comes to producing their knives. They also have a warranty to back up their products, and their name. Bark River is a prime example. Bark River is one of the best knife producers on this planet, if not the best IMO. Mike Stewart clearly has his secret recipes when it comes to heat treating various steels, and he developed his own standard that is clearly reflected in his knives. And he is not afraid to make claims that his knives out perform most others, because the knives speak for themselves. On top of that, he has one of the best warranties in the business to back up his products and name. I think the heat treat is what sets various knife companies apart. They all have there secret recipes persay, and they probably safeguard them like a cook and his recipes lol.

 

[pnsxyr]

At least based on the Bark Rivers I own and have handled, I would agree their heat treatments are industry leaders. I have one in CPM-154 and it holds its edge longer than most production knives I have in ZDP-189, Super Blue, and M4. I assume a major portion of that is advanced design in blade geometry, but it certainly would not be able to perform as well as it does if the steel was not great steel and the heat treatment was not stellar.

I imagine a Phil Wilson in something like M4, S90V, S110V, or M390 would be absolutely nuts in terms of how well the edge holds and probably wouldn't even be on a comparable scale to most production knives...

 

[Karambit777]

I think Bark River Knives have something in the handles that seep into the skin which then creates an addiction that cannot be tamed lol. And then you go out an use it, and then its all over with, your officially hooked for life. I feel like a Junkie when I look at Barkies. I think I have a problem lol. DLT trading knows me by name now lol. I think BRKT is the ONLY brand I will buy from now on. Or at least 97% of the brand I will buy from now on.


But yea, the blade geometry and heat treat on BRKT knives are "stellar.

 

[Karambit777]

Well after carrying and using the Harrier and Harrier Elite for about a week now, I have to say they are some useful knives. The crazy angles actually make cutting rope, and cardboard a breeze. Its like the angles do all the cutting for you while you just simple guide the knife. I haven't used these in the bush yet, but I have been using them for general utility for anything and everything. They can be sharpened if one know what he is doing. (even convexed). For what I paid for them, they are well worth the money seemingly. I still will be carrying these things everyday until I am satisfied if this is a good design for a knife or not. But so far so good. (even with the crazy angles. )

P.S. If anyone buys the Harrier, I would suggest taking the pivet bolt out and squirting the hole full of lock tight, and screwing it back in and let it sit over night before resuming use. This is the only thing I have had to do, since mine worked loose fairly quickly, but most folders do this anyway, so nothing new.