Chinook 4

Ken Cox said:
The comparison of a folder to a fixed blade, by me anyway, does not involve the lock but the hinge and the over all frailty of a folder.

Imagine a table with an open and locked, folding Chinook II or III on it; and, beside it, an exactly identical fixed blade Chinook II or III.

At any moment, a Grizzly Bear, Pit Bull, Tiger, Homicidal Maniac or whatever will enter the room.

Which knife will you choose?
Click to expand...


Touche'

Uh, both, one in each hand?
Actually, you didn't mention the Remington 870, with a nice long tube loaded with alternating rounds of 00 and 12-gauge slug... Even in a fixed blade Chinook, thicker blade stock, and more point strength wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? Doesn't Blackhawk offer a two versions of a fairly identical knife, one a folder and the other a fixed blade? They call it the Crucible, IIRC. Anyway, there does seem to be a precedent for this type of thing.
 
ive always looked at my chinook 2 as a very underated hunter. I know it was primarily of sd design,by a sd guru, but think it would be as good at camp cleaning deer with its kaliga- like blade. the wide pommel end seems perfect for hamering limb joints free, wich i like to do, but concerned the lock will trip from squeezing too hard. if that could be the case i would prefer a different lock. must try this out
 
I plan to use my CH3 as a folding hunter myself. The blade shape and grind is perfect. I prefer the flat grind but that is more preference.

I would want a fixed blade to have a higher blade to handle ratio than you can have with a folder but I definitly would not want the stock any thicker. Most tacticals are way to thick
to use as fighters or as utility knives. The Chinook3 is perfect. A 4 and a half to 5 inch blade with the same handle shape but a solid tang and G10 scales.

NEKI don't worry about the lock but if you do you could grind a Boyle detent into it.
 
NEKI - No worries on the lock. It would be very unlikely it would disengage under a grip. I have tried to get it to disengage and went so far as to optimally postion my hand for this, nothing happened. It did press the lock bar enought that ou could get a little play in the blade, but the lock was so far from releasing that it wasn't a concern. That being said, anything can happen and locks can disengage when least expected. I was able to get a BM axis lock to disengage while changing my grip on the knife, my thumb brushed the lock and plop! there goes the blade. Never been able to duplicate it.
 
Sal Glesser said:
What would be the advantages of a fixed blade Chinook?

Who would prefer a fixed blade to a folder?

Hi Mark,

Titanium liners wouldn't reduce weight much, just increase cost considerably. Although I must admit that the word; "titanium" seems to "sell" products these days, from razors to pens.

Weight reduction in this model would have to reduce steel thickness. Thinner blade, ball bearing lock (P'Kal style), carbon fiber scales, thinner liners.

I would also need Jame's thoughts.

sal
Click to expand...

I still want a fixed blade Chinook. I wanted a larger fixed blade military and so I went to a custom maker and had one made. There's no reason I couldn't do the same for the Chinook, but I'd rather have a Syderco version of each.

As much as I love having a folding Bowie, further changes to the Chinook would be lost on me. Weight reduction might have some merit, but I think anything beyond that, like the introduction of titanium or the ball lock would just be sales gimmicks that wouldn't improve functionality, just price. Of course there are always people out there who see value differently than I do and if there was money to be made in these variations why shouldn't they be pursued? Just like Ken Cook however, I think the Chinook has reached it's ultimate evolution as a folder.

But does that mean the Chinook has reached the potential of it's usefulness or marketability?

To me, the next logical step would be a fixed blade version. So, just as Sal has asked, what would be the advantages of a fixed blade version? From a purpose driven perspective I'd have to revisit the original purpose of the Chinook which was the introduction of a high quality folding self defense knife. Jim Keating has access to any number of knifemakers who could have made him a small fixed blade Chinook, instead he wanted a folder.

So why would anyone carry a folder as opposed to a fixed blade, especially for self defense? A folder by design is a broken fixed blade. This makes them intrinsically weaker. If they weren't, why does every new lock design seem to be touted to be the next best thing to a fixed blade? Anybody remember the Rolling Lock, how about the Syderco Ball Lock? But although I've trained with knives for ten years now, both FMA and Keating Bowie and although my first dedicated defensive folder was the Endura with the molded integral clip; I've stoped carrying folders as my primary defensive edged tool and have gone to fixed blades. But to do so, I've had to deal with the realities of how to carry a concealed fixed blade.

This question has been beaten to death on the forums and Spyderco has built an entire business around it. Folders are more convenient than fixed blades in today's world. They are easier to carry and they have less stigma amongst the sheeple. Does this mean that there isn't a market for small self defense fixed blades? Obviously Spyderco see's some kind of market, witness the Ronin, Kumo and two incarnations of the Perrin street Bowie. Obviously Cold Steel see's a market as well.

I've already settled the question of convenience for myself and obviously Sal does see a market for small fixed blades. So I guess if I were Sal, I'd be asking myself what the cost of a fixed blade Chinook would be and if there is a market for that design in particular at that given price. So how has the Street Bowie been doin' for ya'?

Would the defensive knife community (beyond the Spyderco fan base) buy a fixed blade Chinook? Having the names of Keating and Spyderco behind it would certainly be a selling point. Is there enough of a Spyderco fan base to turn a profit? Sal would have a better idea of that than I would.

Most modern "tactical" blades seem to be hawkbills, kerambits, tantos, or some kind of recurve drop point. Maybe it's time for for the retro bowie to make a comeback?. I have several of each of the other kinds, but I would put all them in a drawer if I could get a fixed blade Chinook. I've even gone so far as to consider buying a new Chinook and then using JB weld to solidify the lock. Or I could just go to a custom maker and have one made. All I know is that I love my Chinook in whatever grip I use it.

But what about a market beyond self defence? Would the design be perceived as useful for everday cutting requirements? At least one of the guys posting here thinks so. A few years ago one of my friends bought a Chinook 1 and he has told me that it's the most useful knife he's ever had. He said he uses it to cut everything that needs cutting around the house, including linoleum!

Would a "retro" bowie compete with all the Bark River, Marble and Case style small hunting knives out there? I don't know.

I know I'd really like to have one.
 
Yes, I would like to get a few "classic" high quality "timeless" folders in our line-up. Not necessarily high quantity, but real performers, effective solutions.

Ken likes the current blade length on the Chinook, is that "ideal" for you?

Tonie, what would be your ideal blade length?

If we can nail down an "ideal" blade length, we can make a test piece.

Also, what would be the "ideal" handle material? Flat or formed like the Street Beat?

I would guess a FB Chinook could be an excellent hunter as well which broadens the market..

sal
 
I want a fixed blade Chinook, SV30, carbon fiber scales, thong hole and reversible kydex sheath suitable for pocket, appendix inside the waist carry or upside down on a harness carry. Flat ground blade is first choice, hollow would be fine, too. Single finger groove grip with "bird's head" pommel like on the folder; tapered tang and/or lightening holes under the scales for weight reduction. Fast to deploy, easy to grip, short, light and tough, it would be a bit blade heavy, but that would be all right. Hell, leave in the thumb hole if you like, for aesthetics, I mean.

Selfish as I am, I'll be happy if you only produce a single run. As long as I get mine.

Spyderco's small fixed blades are among my favorite knives, production or custom. I've been waiting for 20 years for a fixed Police Model. It finally came in the form of the Kumo.

Deployment speed and reliability are its chief attributes. My favorite Spyderco fixed blade, the Perrin Street Bowie - I got two and am looking for a third - fits in my 911 pants pocket or BDU or ACU pockets with no problem.

Regarding the Chinook, I'd keep it the same blade length. A longer blade doesn't make much difference close up (unless you're knife dueling) or in firearms retention. Discretion is essential in concealed carry and in court.

Also, for the military market, a concealed, discrete blade is more desirable for a Soldier or Marine than the stereotypical "fighter." Like it or not, commanders don't let their troops go 'round looking too "Hollywood." That's why you don't see many fixed blades on uniformed troops. They're typically just too darned big. Unfortunately, most troops "settle" for folders when they could carry fixed blades just as discretely.

My two cents.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Yes, I would like to get a few "classic" high quality "timeless" folders in our line-up. Not necessarily high quantity, but real performers, effective solutions.

Ken likes the current blade length on the Chinook, is that "ideal" for you?

Tonie, what would be your ideal blade length?

If we can nail down an "ideal" blade length, we can make a test piece.

Also, what would be the "ideal" handle material? Flat or formed like the Street Beat?

I would guess a FB Chinook could be an excellent hunter as well which broadens the market..


sal
Click to expand...


My Gosh Sal, you constantly amaze me; how many company owners are reading and responding to forums (read that as working) on the weekends!

Just like Ken, I think the blade length is just fine as it is. As a matter of fact I see no need to change the overall dimensions or profile of the knife. I especially like the flat wide nature of the handle and the G10 (?) material. I wouldn't want to get into here, but neither of the Perrin handles have ever really fit my hand. I love the feel of the Chinook and the Military and have no trouble with security and grip exchanges.

The steel is whatever you feel would suit the needs for a hunter/SD piece.

The one change that I would think about making, in an effort to increase it's hunting and everyday use applications, would be to modify the width of the front bolster area. Right now because of the nature of folder construction that front bolster takes up a lot of room. If the bolster was narrower it appears to me that you could put a more definite finger choil in there that would allow people to choke up on the blade and enhance control for fine work without sacrificing blade length for the SD crowd. I'm just a little afraid to do anything really heavy using the choil as it is designed right now. I think a little more breadth and depth would enhance the usable features of the knife.

Thanx Sal

Tonie


Ken, what do you think?
 
Really, Spyderco and James Keating have perfected the Chinook.

Make it fixed.

The real work involves the sheath, and not the knife.

I would like a high ride sheath, so that all of the knife's grip extends above the belt line or waistband.

If worn on the side, and not behind the kidney, this places the handle between the elbow and the torso and makes it unobtrusive to the point of concealing it in plain view.

Especially so, if the blade portion of the sheath resides below and inside the waistband, and not "dangling" from the belt.

Regarding the color of the grip, I have had some new ideas, inspired by the color of deer and the new Marine Corps camouglage pattern.

Yesterday evening, with the sun still above the horizon, I noted three deer in my neighborhood.

When they moved, I could barely see them, whether they moved against a natural background or a man-made background.
When they stopped, they disappeared.

I have noted from a distance, the new Marine Corps camouflage takes on a color similar to the hair of a deer, although lighter in color; sort of a sage, grey, brown, red, green, depending on the light.

Perhaps Spyderco could develop a pattern for the knife scales and exposed portions of the sheath that would blur its shape and help it, if not blend in, then not stand out against a broad range of shirt colors.

The sheath would have three parts held together by machine screws:

1. a clip for the waistband or belt;

2. a scabbard to surround the sharp of the blade, with convex dimples oriented inward to grip the hole in the blade and thus retain the knife; and,

3. a protective plate/skin between the scabbard/handle and the wearer's torso, so as to minimize irritation of the soft skin of the "love handles" and the base of the floating ribs (probably one layer of kydex or other synthetic material with rounded edges).

The sheath and knife scales should have the same molded-in color pattern to break their shape and help them not "stand out."

To move the knife and sheath from one side of the body to the other, the user would disassemble the three parts of the sheath with a hex wrench or screw driver, and reassemble them in their mirror image.

=====

A fixed blade Chinook II or III, using the exact same scales (except color-patterned), including scallops for opening; the same proportions, dimensions and hole as the folding version; the same liners and fasteners; and, a tang skeletonized (for lightness) in the same pattern as the liners.

A color-patterned, disassembleable, ambidextrous, high-ride IWB sheath with a single-layer rub-protection shield between the handle and the wearer's side.

This would quickly become the world's standard woods, hunting, camping, self-defense, tactical and military knife.
 
It just gets better all the time.

Spyderco could make the tang as if they had welded the back spacer and the rocking lock and blade into one piece, so that someone holding the knife and examining it could look into the handle where the blade fomerly folded and resided in the folded-postion.

The spine, or back of the knife would look exactly the same, except for the lack of a gap between the aft portion of the rocking lock and the beginning of the back spacer of the grip.

To complete the look, Spyderco would put tiny flush machine screws in the four groups of three holes in the scales normally used for the movable clip.

Perhaps the user could put fish hooks and fishing line in the hollow of the handle; or a wire saw; or a packet of antibiotic ointment; or, a folded $100 bill (or other denomination).

The user would have no easily visible clue as to whether he held a folding Chinook or a fixed Chinook, other than the lack of a break in the tang spine, and, a lack of separate parts inside the grip hollow.

I, for one, prefer the hollow grind, as it makes for a much sharper knife, in terms of drag through resistive material; a nice, strong spine and point, with a hollow-ground straight-razor edge.
 
Uhhhh Ken, uhhh, doesn't that seem a little extreme for a knife that (perhaps it's just me) was intended primarily as a self defense knife with secondary hunting applications?

My vote is still for a simple slab handled fixed blade. Skeletonizing the tang if necessary for consideration of the balance. And I certainly wouldn't quibble over the grind style That Sal would select, but I would still prefer the present flat grind.
 
While I still feel the Chinook can evelove further as a folder. I can't argue with a fixed blade. It is obvious Ken, Tonie, et al, have put some serious thought into this. I am impressed.

I would like to add my thoughts to the FB idea. I like keeping the dimensions very close to the folder, especially the length. I prefer flat grind over hollow for perfomance. While the hollow grind done well is an excellent performer and looks great, I have found that deep cuts through some material has a binding effect as the material can't clear the upper swell of the hollow grind. Being a fixed blade, a short false edge would work well and permit those who like double edge blades and option. As far as handle ideas, what about giving the knife multiple handle scale options, maybe with color options or tecturing or contouring.

Be it fixed blade or folder, I'm in for a Chinook 4. Let me know when they are ready.:thumbup:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top