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- Apr 27, 2004
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I recently purchased an Emeroson CQC7 (My first one). What is the best sharpener/method to use on this type grind?
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Chisel Edge Sharpening
- Thread starter Navy Knifer
- Start date
Best way to not get a microbevel on the flat side is to grind the bevel til a burr forms on the flat side. Then lay the knife flat on the stone and rub it off. Or use cardbord/abrasive compound and lay it flat on that. Yes it does screw up the finish. You could always kiss the burr off by rubbing the flat side @ a 1 degree angle or less, but this creates a microbevel (asymetric v)
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- Sep 23, 1999
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Thanks Garageboy!
Navy Knifer,
welcome to the forums!
There are 2 ways you can go about doing this. Your knife is a real chisel grind: totally flat on one side, bevels ground on the other. If you want to keep this profile, you should do the following. First, lap the flat side. Do do that, you want to put the flat side on a stone or sandpaper (wet/dry variety) on a FLAT surface and rub the back to a high polish. I have an 800 grit waterstone and a 4000 grit stone I used for my chisels to do this. With wet/dry paper, I'd try 400 first to try to remove the grey surface of your knife, then step up the grits: 600, 800, 1000. Go higher if you want! Definitely though, go to around 1000. With the back lapped flat and polished, sharpening from now on will be very easy. You only need to do that lapping session once through the life of the knife. It may take an hour or more, but it is important. Now to sharpen your knife, you'd sharpen it on the beveled side with, say, a medium stone and raise a little burr on your flat side. Then you put the flat on your finest stone/sandpaper/whatever, nice and flat, and rub the back again just like when lapping. This will take the burr off. Then you go back to your beveled side and use your fine hone, or whatever grit you want for your final edge to be. So you raise a burr again, lap the back to get rid of the burr. Then do some alternating strokes, beveled side on your finishing grit once with light pressure, then one lapping stroke with light pressure on your finest hone/stone/paper. do half a dozen alternating strokes like that with light pressure, and you are done! Just remember that you ALWAYS lap the back of the knife on your finest hone. The reason? A knife edge is th eintersection of 2 "flat" planes. By having the back at a high polish and the bevel at, say, 400 grit, the knife pretty much acts like a 400 grit edge. Sincew the back is super polised, you can always, and easily, hav your edge a very coarse one, or a very fine one, just by changing what you use to sharpen the beveled side. But if you left the back as coarse as it is, and you polished the main bevel to a high polish, you'd still have a coarse back! So, do that long lapping session once and you are set.
If you don't want to do this, your other option is to sharpen the bevel and then try to "kiss" the bevel off by using a fine hone at a very shallow angle on the back just to trmove the burr. THis is fast too, and quite "conventional.
Either produces a sharp knife. However, I only offer this opinion to go with all of this. If you do the secodn method, you will develop a small mirobevel on the knife. To me, it makes no sense to buy a chisel ground knife and then just end up turing it into a double ground edged knife through sharpening. If you want a double ground edge on a knife, there are many other Emersons that aren;t chisel ground (though the EDGE is chisel ground), which you can easily put a double ground edge on. My suggestion is that if you want a chisel ground knife, keep it a true chisel grind and sharpen as I said in the first method. Sure the finish on the back will be "runied", but wait until you see it perform!
Navy Knifer,
welcome to the forums!
There are 2 ways you can go about doing this. Your knife is a real chisel grind: totally flat on one side, bevels ground on the other. If you want to keep this profile, you should do the following. First, lap the flat side. Do do that, you want to put the flat side on a stone or sandpaper (wet/dry variety) on a FLAT surface and rub the back to a high polish. I have an 800 grit waterstone and a 4000 grit stone I used for my chisels to do this. With wet/dry paper, I'd try 400 first to try to remove the grey surface of your knife, then step up the grits: 600, 800, 1000. Go higher if you want! Definitely though, go to around 1000. With the back lapped flat and polished, sharpening from now on will be very easy. You only need to do that lapping session once through the life of the knife. It may take an hour or more, but it is important. Now to sharpen your knife, you'd sharpen it on the beveled side with, say, a medium stone and raise a little burr on your flat side. Then you put the flat on your finest stone/sandpaper/whatever, nice and flat, and rub the back again just like when lapping. This will take the burr off. Then you go back to your beveled side and use your fine hone, or whatever grit you want for your final edge to be. So you raise a burr again, lap the back to get rid of the burr. Then do some alternating strokes, beveled side on your finishing grit once with light pressure, then one lapping stroke with light pressure on your finest hone/stone/paper. do half a dozen alternating strokes like that with light pressure, and you are done! Just remember that you ALWAYS lap the back of the knife on your finest hone. The reason? A knife edge is th eintersection of 2 "flat" planes. By having the back at a high polish and the bevel at, say, 400 grit, the knife pretty much acts like a 400 grit edge. Sincew the back is super polised, you can always, and easily, hav your edge a very coarse one, or a very fine one, just by changing what you use to sharpen the beveled side. But if you left the back as coarse as it is, and you polished the main bevel to a high polish, you'd still have a coarse back! So, do that long lapping session once and you are set.
If you don't want to do this, your other option is to sharpen the bevel and then try to "kiss" the bevel off by using a fine hone at a very shallow angle on the back just to trmove the burr. THis is fast too, and quite "conventional.
Either produces a sharp knife. However, I only offer this opinion to go with all of this. If you do the secodn method, you will develop a small mirobevel on the knife. To me, it makes no sense to buy a chisel ground knife and then just end up turing it into a double ground edged knife through sharpening. If you want a double ground edge on a knife, there are many other Emersons that aren;t chisel ground (though the EDGE is chisel ground), which you can easily put a double ground edge on. My suggestion is that if you want a chisel ground knife, keep it a true chisel grind and sharpen as I said in the first method. Sure the finish on the back will be "runied", but wait until you see it perform!
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 6
Thanks Crayola,
I'm just cutting my teeth (pun intended) on these tactical folders. The CQC7 was my first followed shortly thereafter with a Benchmade 710. I like them both but I've been using the Emerson as my EDC knife. I purchased a Sharpmaker but don't think it is that good for sharpening the Chisel grind. I'm looking to purchase some stones - which ones do you recommend?
I'm just cutting my teeth (pun intended) on these tactical folders. The CQC7 was my first followed shortly thereafter with a Benchmade 710. I like them both but I've been using the Emerson as my EDC knife. I purchased a Sharpmaker but don't think it is that good for sharpening the Chisel grind. I'm looking to purchase some stones - which ones do you recommend?
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- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
Navy Knifer:
Glad to hear you are enjoying 'cutting your teeth'! And the 2 knives you mentioned sure are of a good quality to start with!
I personally use a wide variety of sharpening gear. From power to jig to freehand, it depends on what I am trying to do, as well as my mood sometimes!
To do a chisel ground knife as I mentioned, for stones I recommend Japanese waterstones. There are many sources for these stones. I recommend Lee Valley Tools, or Japan Woodworker. You may have local sources for them as well. Japanese waterstones are more friable than other stones: they break down faster. Also, the grit has a lot of sharp jaggedness to it, and th ebond doesn't maks the grit liek other types can. So, the stone particles sharpen fast because the jagged particles really bite the steel, and then break off readily to expose more sharp particles. Also, as the stone is used it develops a slurry which is a mix of water, worn steel and worn down particles. This slurry makes a stone cut like a finer stone. So you sharpen away and flush the stone regularly, but then when nearing the end of using that stone you let the slurry build up and it acts like a higher grit stone. This makes transitioning to a finer hone quite easy, saving you time. There is also a lot of grits available with waterstones, which is great. Downsides? You should only buy waterstones if you already have, or will buy right away, lapping equipment. The stones dish faster than other stones, and should be flattened regularly. Lee Valley sells a glass plate and lapping grits for this job. All you do is put soem grit on the glass, sprinkle on some water, and move the stone in circles. I do this while watching cooking shows! It isn't a hard job, but it must be done regularly. Lee Valley also sells Mylar sheets to go with the glass plate they sell. This is to preserve the flatness of the plate. The mylar is very flat, thin plastic that sticks to the glass. The grit sprinkled onto the mylar sticks into the mylar more easily than it does in glass! Also, as the mylar is worn away, you just peel it off and put on a new sheet, keeping the glass flat.
I have an 800 grit stone (higher grit coarse stone) and a 400 grit (bottom end finishing stone). I also have a 200 grit stone, all from lee Valley. I am not that good with the 200 grit stone, because it seems to soak up all the water I can give it and it "dries" out super quick. I just need to find out how to keep ti wet for sharpening. I got that stone for quickly thinnign otu edges by hand, repairing nicked edges, etc. The 800 grit stone cuts pretty aggressive, and the 4000 grit stone puts a nice shien on my chisel edges. I'd recommend an 800 and 4000 grit stone minimum. 1200 would be nice inbetween the 2 steps. Next I'd get something coarser for thinning out bevels. After a lot more practice, go ahead and get a finer stone.
FYI, Lee Valley sells something called a "Stone Pond System", which is what I got. It comes with a 800 grit stone, 4000 grit stone, glass plate, mylar sheet, lapping grit, and a plastic sharpening tub. You put water in the tub and keep the coarse stoen in the water, and your fine hone hangs upside down from a rail just touching the water to keep it wet. There are 2 rails which you stick in slots and you clamp the stones in the rails. So, the fien hone stays in its rail and just gets turned upside-down when done; you completely remove the coarse hone and leave it in the bottom of the tub. The tub keeps the stones wet, ready to use, and has the glass plate right there for lapping. I definitely recommend this set-up.
Another thing you can do is just get a piece of tempered glass from somewhere (or order one from Lee Valley), get a 4000 grit waterstone, and soem wet/dry sandpaper. Use the paper and finally the stone to lap the flat side of the CQC-7 flat and polished. Then, use your sharpmaker to sharpen the beveled side of the CQC-7, and the 4000 grit stone for the lapping strokes on the back. This woud be cheaper for sure, since you already have the sharpmaker and wet/dry paper is readily available for most folks locally.
I hope this helps some! Feel free to ask more questions!
Glad to hear you are enjoying 'cutting your teeth'! And the 2 knives you mentioned sure are of a good quality to start with!
I personally use a wide variety of sharpening gear. From power to jig to freehand, it depends on what I am trying to do, as well as my mood sometimes!
To do a chisel ground knife as I mentioned, for stones I recommend Japanese waterstones. There are many sources for these stones. I recommend Lee Valley Tools, or Japan Woodworker. You may have local sources for them as well. Japanese waterstones are more friable than other stones: they break down faster. Also, the grit has a lot of sharp jaggedness to it, and th ebond doesn't maks the grit liek other types can. So, the stone particles sharpen fast because the jagged particles really bite the steel, and then break off readily to expose more sharp particles. Also, as the stone is used it develops a slurry which is a mix of water, worn steel and worn down particles. This slurry makes a stone cut like a finer stone. So you sharpen away and flush the stone regularly, but then when nearing the end of using that stone you let the slurry build up and it acts like a higher grit stone. This makes transitioning to a finer hone quite easy, saving you time. There is also a lot of grits available with waterstones, which is great. Downsides? You should only buy waterstones if you already have, or will buy right away, lapping equipment. The stones dish faster than other stones, and should be flattened regularly. Lee Valley sells a glass plate and lapping grits for this job. All you do is put soem grit on the glass, sprinkle on some water, and move the stone in circles. I do this while watching cooking shows! It isn't a hard job, but it must be done regularly. Lee Valley also sells Mylar sheets to go with the glass plate they sell. This is to preserve the flatness of the plate. The mylar is very flat, thin plastic that sticks to the glass. The grit sprinkled onto the mylar sticks into the mylar more easily than it does in glass! Also, as the mylar is worn away, you just peel it off and put on a new sheet, keeping the glass flat.
I have an 800 grit stone (higher grit coarse stone) and a 400 grit (bottom end finishing stone). I also have a 200 grit stone, all from lee Valley. I am not that good with the 200 grit stone, because it seems to soak up all the water I can give it and it "dries" out super quick. I just need to find out how to keep ti wet for sharpening. I got that stone for quickly thinnign otu edges by hand, repairing nicked edges, etc. The 800 grit stone cuts pretty aggressive, and the 4000 grit stone puts a nice shien on my chisel edges. I'd recommend an 800 and 4000 grit stone minimum. 1200 would be nice inbetween the 2 steps. Next I'd get something coarser for thinning out bevels. After a lot more practice, go ahead and get a finer stone.
FYI, Lee Valley sells something called a "Stone Pond System", which is what I got. It comes with a 800 grit stone, 4000 grit stone, glass plate, mylar sheet, lapping grit, and a plastic sharpening tub. You put water in the tub and keep the coarse stoen in the water, and your fine hone hangs upside down from a rail just touching the water to keep it wet. There are 2 rails which you stick in slots and you clamp the stones in the rails. So, the fien hone stays in its rail and just gets turned upside-down when done; you completely remove the coarse hone and leave it in the bottom of the tub. The tub keeps the stones wet, ready to use, and has the glass plate right there for lapping. I definitely recommend this set-up.
Another thing you can do is just get a piece of tempered glass from somewhere (or order one from Lee Valley), get a 4000 grit waterstone, and soem wet/dry sandpaper. Use the paper and finally the stone to lap the flat side of the CQC-7 flat and polished. Then, use your sharpmaker to sharpen the beveled side of the CQC-7, and the 4000 grit stone for the lapping strokes on the back. This woud be cheaper for sure, since you already have the sharpmaker and wet/dry paper is readily available for most folks locally.
I hope this helps some! Feel free to ask more questions!
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- Jul 6, 1999
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- 1,151
Recently I tried a new (to me) way of sharpening on my BM970S.
Put the knife on a flat workbench. Determine the right angle by scraping the bench with very slight pressure, from flat then gradually vertical. At a certain point, you'll feel the drag when the edge start to scrape. Then lie down the blade angle slightly to make the edge bevel contact the surface of the bench.
While keeping the angle, spread a sandpaper between the knife and the bench. Then put the knife on the sandpaper, still keeping the right angle.
You can sharpend the knife by pulling the sandpaper instead of moving the knife. If it comes to the end of the sandpaper, put up the knife slightly and set the sandpaper back to the starting position.
An experienced one will not need such setup, but it's easier way to keep the knife at the right angle through the sharpening process.
Put the knife on a flat workbench. Determine the right angle by scraping the bench with very slight pressure, from flat then gradually vertical. At a certain point, you'll feel the drag when the edge start to scrape. Then lie down the blade angle slightly to make the edge bevel contact the surface of the bench.
While keeping the angle, spread a sandpaper between the knife and the bench. Then put the knife on the sandpaper, still keeping the right angle.
You can sharpend the knife by pulling the sandpaper instead of moving the knife. If it comes to the end of the sandpaper, put up the knife slightly and set the sandpaper back to the starting position.
An experienced one will not need such setup, but it's easier way to keep the knife at the right angle through the sharpening process.
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- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 6
I have not used the Sharpmaker on the CQC-7. I realized right away that it was not optimum for sharpening a chisel grind. I intend to invest in some stones. I was really interested in Crayola's right up on water stones. However, before I spend a ton of money I will continue research the alternatives. I've also read several threads on the edge pro but I am not sure that is the way I want to go.
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- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
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GarageBoy,
If you hold a chisel ground knife perfectly vertical and sharpen on the Sharpmaker (bevel side, of course), then it would probably be too thin (since you'd either be sharpenign at 15 or 20 degrees. However, alll you need do is tilt the knife past vertical and sharpen that way, to change the angle. You won't get angle control like with something such as the Edge pro, but it will be pretty good. In fact, the sharpmaker trick would very quickly teach you what angle to lock your arm at to sharpen the beveled side of a chisel grind.
Navy knifer: glad I could be of service. I get a lot of help from folks here through discussions just like this, so I am just happy I can help someone out! Thanks to you too Garage Boy for passing on chisel sharpening info too! NK, I have an Edge Pro Apex wih stone upgrade. For a very comprehensive system to do chisel grinds and others too, I recommend the Edge Pro Apex with stone upgrade, the plate glass from Lee Valley and the lapping grit, a 4000 grit waterstone from lee Valley, and some wet/dry paper. Your sharpmaker will be great for touch-ups, serrations, scissors, etc. Use the Edge Pro for most other sharpening needs, including sharpening the bevel on chisel ground knives. Use the plate glass and sandpaper and 4000 grit stone to lap the backs of chisel ground knives. The plate glass and grit will also be awesome for lapping flat your Edge pro stones (they are watertstones, so they require lapping more frequent than other types of stones.) The Edge pro does come with sand for lapping, but they just suggest lapping on a concrete block or whatever is handy. Also, the sand included I think isn't as aggressive as the SiC grit that you can get from Lee Valley. With the plate glass, you can lap any stone you have any time you want. Also, you can use the plate glass and rough grit paper to thin out edge bevels. If you take, say, a folder from Benchmade (40 degrees inclusive) and you want to thin it out quite a bit, say 12 degrees per side with a 15 degree per side micro bevel, you'll probably end up needing to lap the Edge Pro stone afterwards to make sure it is flat for the net tiem you use it. Instead, slap on some 60 grit paper on the glass (spray the back with water and it will "stick" to the glass), spray on some water and use that to thin out thick edge bevels, then go to the Edge Pro. This actually will save a lot of time. not that the Edge Pro is slow at hogging steel at edges (it is way faster than most systems). It is just that free hand hogging is way faster. That is whay I got that 200 grit 3"x3"x8" stone for: I can thin out a thick bevel in a jiffy on that, clean up on the Edge pro with the coarse stone, and polish the bevel in minutes thereafter. 60 grit wet/dry is available all over the place too!
By the way, if you did get all of that gear, you'd end up with a set-up like me. I have an Edge Pro, the Lee Valley stoen pond as mentioned already, and a sharpmaker. I also have a nice 2x42 grinder (belt sander), but I make knives as a hobby in my spare time
If you ever want to go powered, start a post about 1x30 belt sanders and I'll fill ya in! I use all of my sharpeming gear too: just depends on what I want to do, and with what edged tool. I'd hate to sharpen a machete on anything but my grinder, I'd hate to do serrations on anything but my Sharpmaker, I'd hate to try to sharpen a knife from scraping sharp to scary sharp infront of the TV with anythign but my Edge Pro...
If you hold a chisel ground knife perfectly vertical and sharpen on the Sharpmaker (bevel side, of course), then it would probably be too thin (since you'd either be sharpenign at 15 or 20 degrees. However, alll you need do is tilt the knife past vertical and sharpen that way, to change the angle. You won't get angle control like with something such as the Edge pro, but it will be pretty good. In fact, the sharpmaker trick would very quickly teach you what angle to lock your arm at to sharpen the beveled side of a chisel grind.
Navy knifer: glad I could be of service. I get a lot of help from folks here through discussions just like this, so I am just happy I can help someone out! Thanks to you too Garage Boy for passing on chisel sharpening info too! NK, I have an Edge Pro Apex wih stone upgrade. For a very comprehensive system to do chisel grinds and others too, I recommend the Edge Pro Apex with stone upgrade, the plate glass from Lee Valley and the lapping grit, a 4000 grit waterstone from lee Valley, and some wet/dry paper. Your sharpmaker will be great for touch-ups, serrations, scissors, etc. Use the Edge Pro for most other sharpening needs, including sharpening the bevel on chisel ground knives. Use the plate glass and sandpaper and 4000 grit stone to lap the backs of chisel ground knives. The plate glass and grit will also be awesome for lapping flat your Edge pro stones (they are watertstones, so they require lapping more frequent than other types of stones.) The Edge pro does come with sand for lapping, but they just suggest lapping on a concrete block or whatever is handy. Also, the sand included I think isn't as aggressive as the SiC grit that you can get from Lee Valley. With the plate glass, you can lap any stone you have any time you want. Also, you can use the plate glass and rough grit paper to thin out edge bevels. If you take, say, a folder from Benchmade (40 degrees inclusive) and you want to thin it out quite a bit, say 12 degrees per side with a 15 degree per side micro bevel, you'll probably end up needing to lap the Edge Pro stone afterwards to make sure it is flat for the net tiem you use it. Instead, slap on some 60 grit paper on the glass (spray the back with water and it will "stick" to the glass), spray on some water and use that to thin out thick edge bevels, then go to the Edge Pro. This actually will save a lot of time. not that the Edge Pro is slow at hogging steel at edges (it is way faster than most systems). It is just that free hand hogging is way faster. That is whay I got that 200 grit 3"x3"x8" stone for: I can thin out a thick bevel in a jiffy on that, clean up on the Edge pro with the coarse stone, and polish the bevel in minutes thereafter. 60 grit wet/dry is available all over the place too!
By the way, if you did get all of that gear, you'd end up with a set-up like me. I have an Edge Pro, the Lee Valley stoen pond as mentioned already, and a sharpmaker. I also have a nice 2x42 grinder (belt sander), but I make knives as a hobby in my spare time
If you ever want to go powered, start a post about 1x30 belt sanders and I'll fill ya in! I use all of my sharpeming gear too: just depends on what I want to do, and with what edged tool. I'd hate to sharpen a machete on anything but my grinder, I'd hate to do serrations on anything but my Sharpmaker, I'd hate to try to sharpen a knife from scraping sharp to scary sharp infront of the TV with anythign but my Edge Pro... - Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 6
Crayola,
You are a man after my own heart. I can see myself two years from now with all the gear you mentioned, as well as tinkering with knife making. Almost forces you to buy knives just so you have something to sharpen.
Sounds like you think the Edge Pro is best for Chisel Grinds?
You are a man after my own heart. I can see myself two years from now with all the gear you mentioned, as well as tinkering with knife making. Almost forces you to buy knives just so you have something to sharpen.
Sounds like you think the Edge Pro is best for Chisel Grinds?
GarageBoy,
You might want to check out a surplus Belgian Navy knife to practice on. The sheepfoot blade is chisel ground. Mine came with the middle third of the blade dished out (from poor sharpening technique? any ideas out there?) and dinged. A real project. But the price was right ($8). Plus it has a can/bottle opener, screwdriver and marlin spike. In case you need to spike a marlin I guess.
You might want to check out a surplus Belgian Navy knife to practice on. The sheepfoot blade is chisel ground. Mine came with the middle third of the blade dished out (from poor sharpening technique? any ideas out there?) and dinged. A real project. But the price was right ($8). Plus it has a can/bottle opener, screwdriver and marlin spike. In case you need to spike a marlin I guess.