Chisel Grind for Self defense knives

[goodeyesniper]

I would wager a guess that in the very rare occurence you actually have to slice someone up for self defense you would never EVER notice the difference between a similar knife with a typical flat grind, or one with a zero grind chisel, or even one with a scandi or full convex. there would be so much happening, and there are so many variables, that something like that doesn't make any measurable difference. Hell, you can go look at the meat cutting tests of guys using "dull" knives (will no longer slice paper) and they barely produce different results than knives that will wittle hair, that "dull" edge will still completely mess someone up.

Flesh parts rather easily when you put a thin piece of metal at it with good force.

 

[james terrio]

My understanding, which may be imperfect, is that a chisel-ground blade will inflict a more severe, curving cut than edges that are symmetrically ground.

What we have here is a bunch of hooey, generally perpetuated by people with a marketing angle. (pun intended)

In short, that's utter nonsense. In soft materials at high speed, a chisel ground knife will cut almost exactly the same as an equally-thick blade with an equally-high double grind.

Why? They will have the same bevel angle at the edge. The rules of geometry don't suddenly change just because we're talking about knives instead of ... well, everything else.

The rather slight difference from center-line-to-edge can be very easily overcome by turning your wrist just a bit. We're talking about a few degrees over the course of an inch, here.

In a fighting scenario, the angle of approach and motion of the blade itself will have a far, far greater influence on how the blade cuts, than how it's ground.

For fine, delicate work (slicing sashimi) or in hard materials (carving hardwood), yes, then the grind style makes a lot more difference.

In short, a chisel-ground blade will work just fine for defensive purposes. I prefer double-grinds simply because they're more versatile. I do carry a knife with SD in mind, but thankfully I've never had to use one for it. Most of my cutting is pretty mundane

 

[Lycosa]

The kwaito, under clothing, is an old style chisel grind Japanese knife that was easy to make, use and sharpen. The beauty of this knife is it's simplicity.

 

[Aeolus]

Lots of good replies here, thanks a lot guys looks like we're close to putting this one to bed.

Today, 04:50 AMA.P.F.
Firstly, welcome to the forums, Aeolus. Secondly, please excuse the 'static' as the signal to noise ratio around here can at times be problematic.

A true chisel grind has the advantage of exceptional edge sharpness, easy maintenance (one bevel to sharpen), lots of strength behind the edge and once you are used to it, it is serviceable for everyday use. Not being a martial arts practitioner, I can't really comment on that application, but someone that can, is known as KaliGman in the Spyderco Company forum and/or the Spyderco community forum on this site.

I have seen some of kaligmans YouTube videos and I will say he seems to have a great deal of skill. If someone could possibly forward this thread to him if they have the means to it would be greatly appreciated, I'd love to hear his input. Signal to noise ratio? You an audio engineer? Lol

Today, 01:28 PMJNewell
Michael Jannich did some actual cutting tests with various blade profiles and grinds. I don't remember the specifics - you could search at Spydercoforums. I do recall that some did objectively better than others, but having said that, having been once very seriously cut by a knife, the whole thing has the aroma of the 9mm vs. .45ACP arguwasteoftimement - in real life, I don't want to be hit anywhere that matters by either...same for blades, so if the Emerson otherwise works well for you, just carry on.

also if someone could possibly dig up the thread where Janich tests various blade grinds and link it that would be a huge help.

Today, 03:25 PMgoodeyesniper
I would wager a guess that in the very rare occurence you actually have to slice someone up for self defense you would never EVER notice the difference between a similar knife with a typical flat grind, or one with a zero grind chisel, or even one with a scandi or full convex. there would be so much happening, and there are so many variables, that something like that doesn't make any measurable difference. Hell, you can go look at the meat cutting tests of guys using "dull" knives (will no longer slice paper) and they barely produce different results than knives that will wittle hair, that "dull" edge will still completely mess someone up.

Flesh parts rather easily when you put a thin piece of metal at it with good force.

this makes a lot of sense, my only caveat would be in this scenario wouldn't grind actually matter more since you are basically relying on the grind solely rather than the final terminating edge.

Thanks again everyone for all of the replies, and thank you all for a warm welcome.

 

[jimh0220]

I have 4 Graham Razels that would argue with the effectiveness of a Chisel Grind for Self Defense. Check out Graham's web site. He addresses that very same issue. Any sharp edge will work in a SD situation.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Ernie Emerson has done quite well with his chisel grinds.

 

[Ridgeback08]

Short answer: chisel grind will be just fine for SD purposes. Have at it and share with us what you end up doing! And welcome!

 

[Wsmith123925]

First off I'd like to say I'm not sure if this is a proper introduction, I haven't joined a forum in years so I'm not sure what the protocols are these days. I have lurked on this forum a bit and have heard nothing but good about this site, so I hope you all will welcome me with open arms .

Anyway now that's out of the way lets move on to my question. I will prefix this by saying I have searched the web and asked several different people with knowledge on the subject and I can't seem to get a straight answer. Basically I'm a Kali practitioner and I'd like to get a custom fixed blade that will excell in the role of self defense. The perticular knife I'm looking at can only be made with a chisel grind, specifically a zero chisel grind (no secondary bevel). I have heard that chisel grinds can only cut in one direction effectively, is this true? So if it was ground on the right side of the blade and held in my right hand and I cut from right to left (we call this angle 1 usually in Kali) or if I cut from left to right ( angle 2) would a chisel ground knife cut equally effective or slightly better/ worse or even not at all for both angles, depending on which side of the knife is ground and which side is flat.

Keep in mind this is purely from a stand point of self defense I don't really care about how it performs in everyday cutting chores, unless it is relevant. So that about sums it up, I understand Emerson almost exclusively uses the chisel grind and the zero chisel grind, so I have to wonder why they would choose to use that grind if it can only effectively cut in one direction since clearly they market their knives for self defense application first and foremost. Hopefully you all can offer some insight on the subject. Thanks.

Chisel grind is the combat edge of choice in my opinion, makes a tough sharp edge less likely to chip or roll because u have a lot of steel supporting it. takes half the work to field sharpen if you need to. When you stab something with a flat or hallow ground dagger obviously it can still kill but it makes a nice symmetrical cut even on Both sides. I’m With a chisel grind it stretches, splits, rips and tears skin making for a larger wound channel because it is uneven and not symmetrical it is harder to stitch and heal from. It cuts fine on both sides if you are doing edc task like cutting card board sometimes you will get unsymmetrical cuts because the blade is only flat on one side if you don’t consciously adjust to keep it straight it will veer off. The same reason fat computer dorks don’t like it for edc is the same reason why it is effective for combat lol. In my mind your not doing precision surgery with beautiful shin edges and symmetrical cuts if your defending yourself you will be hoped up on adrenaline you will fall to you lowest level of training and maybe resort to animalistic instinct training is good if you can retain it on auto piolet under extreme life threatening panics but general rule of thumb poke as many holes as possible and do t stop until the attacker is completely neutralized if it not a potentially deadly attack do not pull a edged weapon If you want to survive a potentially deadly attack you need to be more brutal ruthless and violent then your attacker you want him to have huge gaping uneven wound channels you want him to be physically and mentally demoralized and out of the fight it you or him don’t do him any favors the chisel grind is an advantage so use every advantages possible u might not get the opportunity to redo anything. If you do t believe me take 2 knives of the same stock thickness one with a v grind and 1 chiseled stab and slash a peice of meat or ur organic medium of choice and let me know which hole you would rather put into a man willing to kill you and your family.

First off I'd like to say I'm not sure if this is a proper introduction, I haven't joined a forum in years so I'm not sure what the protocols are these days. I have lurked on this forum a bit and have heard nothing but good about this site, so I hope you all will welcome me with open arms .

Anyway now that's out of the way lets move on to my question. I will prefix this by saying I have searched the web and asked several different people with knowledge on the subject and I can't seem to get a straight answer. Basically I'm a Kali practitioner and I'd like to get a custom fixed blade that will excell in the role of self defense. The perticular knife I'm looking at can only be made with a chisel grind, specifically a zero chisel grind (no secondary bevel). I have heard that chisel grinds can only cut in one direction effectively, is this true? So if it was ground on the right side of the blade and held in my right hand and I cut from right to left (we call this angle 1 usually in Kali) or if I cut from left to right ( angle 2) would a chisel ground knife cut equally effective or slightly better/ worse or even not at all for both angles, depending on which side of the knife is ground and which side is flat.

Keep in mind this is purely from a stand point of self defense I don't really care about how it performs in everyday cutting chores, unless it is relevant. So that about sums it up, I understand Emerson almost exclusively uses the chisel grind and the zero chisel grind, so I have to wonder why they would choose to use that grind if it can only effectively cut in one direction since clearly they market their knives for self defense application first and foremost. Hopefully you all can offer some insight on the subject. Thanks.

and tears

 

[CHNeal]

Nevermind I got nothin

 

[Murdamook]

Chisel grind is the combat edge of choice in my opinion, makes a tough sharp edge less likely to chip or roll because u have a lot of steel supporting it. takes half the work to field sharpen if you need to. When you stab something with a flat or hallow ground dagger obviously it can still kill but it makes a nice symmetrical cut even on Both sides. I’m With a chisel grind it stretches, splits, rips and tears skin making for a larger wound channel because it is uneven and not symmetrical it is harder to stitch and heal from. It cuts fine on both sides if you are doing edc task like cutting card board sometimes you will get unsymmetrical cuts because the blade is only flat on one side if you don’t consciously adjust to keep it straight it will veer off. The same reason fat computer dorks don’t like it for edc is the same reason why it is effective for combat lol. In my mind your not doing precision surgery with beautiful shin edges and symmetrical cuts if your defending yourself you will be hoped up on adrenaline you will fall to you lowest level of training and maybe resort to animalistic instinct training is good if you can retain it on auto piolet under extreme life threatening panics but general rule of thumb poke as many holes as possible and do t stop until the attacker is completely neutralized if it not a potentially deadly attack do not pull a edged weapon If you want to survive a potentially deadly attack you need to be more brutal ruthless and violent then your attacker you want him to have huge gaping uneven wound channels you want him to be physically and mentally demoralized and out of the fight it you or him don’t do him any favors the chisel grind is an advantage so use every advantages possible u might not get the opportunity to redo anything. If you do t believe me take 2 knives of the same stock thickness one with a v grind and 1 chiseled stab and slash a peice of meat or ur organic medium of choice and let me know which hole you would rather put into a man willing to kill you and your family.

and tears

Did you necro a 9 year old thread to say something that’s been said repeatedly in the thread?

 

[shane45-1911]

Chisel grind is the combat edge of choice in my opinion, makes a tough sharp edge less likely to chip or roll because u have a lot of steel supporting it. takes half the work to field sharpen if you need to. When you stab something with a flat or hallow ground dagger obviously it can still kill but it makes a nice symmetrical cut even on Both sides. I’m With a chisel grind it stretches, splits, rips and tears skin making for a larger wound channel because it is uneven and not symmetrical it is harder to stitch and heal from. It cuts fine on both sides if you are doing edc task like cutting card board sometimes you will get unsymmetrical cuts because the blade is only flat on one side if you don’t consciously adjust to keep it straight it will veer off. The same reason fat computer dorks don’t like it for edc is the same reason why it is effective for combat lol. In my mind your not doing precision surgery with beautiful shin edges and symmetrical cuts if your defending yourself you will be hoped up on adrenaline you will fall to you lowest level of training and maybe resort to animalistic instinct training is good if you can retain it on auto piolet under extreme life threatening panics but general rule of thumb poke as many holes as possible and do t stop until the attacker is completely neutralized if it not a potentially deadly attack do not pull a edged weapon If you want to survive a potentially deadly attack you need to be more brutal ruthless and violent then your attacker you want him to have huge gaping uneven wound channels you want him to be physically and mentally demoralized and out of the fight it you or him don’t do him any favors the chisel grind is an advantage so use every advantages possible u might not get the opportunity to redo anything. If you do t believe me take 2 knives of the same stock thickness one with a v grind and 1 chiseled stab and slash a peice of meat or ur organic medium of choice and let me know which hole you would rather put into a man willing to kill you and your family.

Paragraphs are your friend. This was painful to read, and a re-hash of everything that has already been said (ad nauseum).

And no need to resurrect 9 year old threads.

I will add that YOU are the weapon, not the tool in your hand. Any knife will perform equally (read, insufficiently) in the hands of an untrained individual. And there is no significant advantage to any knife (or blade grind) in the hands of someone even WITH training. 30 years as LEO with background in numerous martial arts disciplines and force-on-force instructor for several agencies, has lead me to this conclusion.

Welcome to the forum, regardless.

 

[Locutus D'Borg]

Could someone please translate?

I think our loquacious friend Dragon should install spell check or something similar.

As far as self-defense, I have never been attacked (as a civilian) but my thinking is that for legal reasons I prefer to use objects in my environment that aren't normally thought of as weapons. Re chisel grinds, I owned a very nice custom CQC-7 (gave it away) and the blade LOOKED like it would do major damage no matter how you used it. Wish I still had it.

 

[Hashishiin]

first

there are rules, then there are secret rules, which are supposed to be rules but i could never find them. then there are the double secret rules - don't ask you find out.

grinds sminds

chisel is a chisel or japanesse chef knife - are you slicing fish thin? or are you removing wood preciously?

good grind is one it comes with or double taper as i call it. depending on the steel you want a near flat tip with a less flat total grind for strength.

one direction? broken sticks cut in more then one so that can not be true!
i got one in my eye, in my hand and my leg - old people get more sticks period.

self defensive it is bad idea! BAD!!!!!!!!

it is weak!!!!

depends on the steel but............. "the zero chisel grind" sorry i am not googling that.

good reason why not too chisel and why too - why... fish! thin veggies i.e. jap steel which is high carbon, and jap food which is thin!

why not: has too due with grain size, grain boundries, modern steels.

want a sumuri sword, buy a mini one, you want a sushi knife buy a little one other wise stick with 2 edges . remember 2 hears are better then one? wait, two sides are better then one.


wow - i just swore i type less - sorrrrrrrrrrry

It's Zulus long lost brother

 

[Zulus]

It's Zulus long lost brother

who exactly ??

 

[Bob Denman]

I have no self defense back ground. That being said, I would think that blade shape and your technique are more important than edge profile. Sharp is sharp.