Chisel grind......Opinions??

i am new to these forums, but have trained for years in ninjitsu and kendo/swordwork. i like these types of grinds

i think people who actually cut things alot, like these grinds, too

can anyone here say that Hartsfield knives, Snody knives, Martiin knives and Emerson knives don't cut????

even though i personally favor a tanto always, i think that chisel grinds are great!

a design that has clearly proven itself!!

Tam
 
Originally posted by calyth
....while Emersons are chisel grinds.
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Not exactly. Not all Emersons are chisel grinds. Most of their production knives have a conventional V grind with a chisel edge. All of their edges are chisel though.

I don't see how people can say that a chisel edge cannot be made truly sharp. What kind of edge does a razor blade have? What kind of edge do surgical scalpels have? The whole argument about the edge angle being too obtuse is not really an issue. Take Emersons for instance. They have a total edge angle of 20-25 degrees, even though this is only on one side of the blade. Take other knives that have their edge ground to 15-20 degrees. This is 15-20 degrees on each side for a total angle of 30-40 degrees respectively.

Sure, chisel edges might be a bit limited in their use for detailed work, but for general utility, they are just fine. As far as Emersons are concerned, they are pretty much designed for SD, which the chisel edge is perfectly suited for.

Mike
 
This depends on your preference and what you are going to do with it.

Case in point, I bought a Commander a few years back. Sharpened it to a mirror finish, and it cut everything. Good quality knife, not one lick of trouble. The problem was that I just didn't like the way it cut.

One day I mentioned this to my best friend. He rolled his eyes and exclaimed that he had been looking for one for quite a while (Commanders were hard to find in Wisconsin two years ago, and my friend is a bit OCD and hates to wait those TWO days it would take Josh or 1SKS to get him the knife!) He bought the knife right out of my pants. We had to go to my house and get the box and all of the paperwork. (I save all of the boxes, packing material and receipts for each knife. It sounds weird, but some guys really pay top dollar if all of the parts are there. My friend is that type of guy.)

We're both ex-bikers, both too near to 50 years old and we have more pairs of crusty blue jeans than we have white shirts. He still carries that Commander, and I carry a Strider AR. We both cut about the same things, and we each think we have the better knife. Go figure.
 
I don't think the Buck Intrepids have Chisel-ground blades, they are all hollow-ground. There is a version that has a chisel point, but that's a completely different beast all together.
 
Originally posted by Medic1210

I don't see how people can say that a chisel edge cannot be made truly sharp. What kind of edge does a razor blade have? What kind of edge do surgical scalpels have? The whole argument about the edge angle being too obtuse is not really an issue. Take Emersons for instance. They have a total edge angle of 20-25 degrees, even though this is only on one side of the blade. Take other knives that have their edge ground to 15-20 degrees. This is 15-20 degrees on each side for a total angle of 30-40 degrees respectively.

Sure, chisel edges might be a bit limited in their use for detailed work, but for general utility, they are just fine. As far as Emersons are concerned, they are pretty much designed for SD, which the chisel edge is perfectly suited for.
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Scalpels and razor blades have a chisel edge because they are designed to be cheap and disposable, not to improve performance.

The problem with chisel grinds is not that they are too obtuse or somehow less sharp than standard grinds; as you said the two designs are generally within a few degrees of one another. Rather, they are not any stronger or more suited to "Hard Use" :rolleyes: for the very same reason.

I have no doubt that if it is correctly made and decently thin a chisel grind/edge can cut many things quite well. However, there are many common cases where a chisel design will likely not cut as well as a V grind. This begs the question of what the advantages of a chisel grind are for the knife user. I am not aware of any benefit from a chisel grind other than possibly a slight increase in whittling potential if the grind is on the correct side. I think this is what forces manufacturers to make awkward statements like "easier to sharpen!".

I often hear people say that these edges are somehow better for self defense or hard use, but I have never heard the reason why this is so. Exactly how does a chisel design benefit the knife user?
 
What bothers me most,is when people say things like,the edge is ground like a chisel.Well maybe a WOOD CHISEL,but metal and masonary chisels have an edge ground on each side.Small point maybe,but true just the same.:)
 
Originally posted by fishbulb
Scalpels and razor blades have a chisel edge because they are designed to be cheap and disposable, not to improve performance.
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Do they? I just checked the scalpel and razor blades here in my lab, and they all had a V grind (#10 and #11 scalpels, and single edge utility and oscillating microtome razors). Also, my sliding microtome blades, very likely the sharpest things that I've ever been in the same room with, are all V grind as well.
 
Originally posted by tribalbeeyatch
Do they? I just checked the scalpel and razor blades here in my lab, and they all had a V grind (#10 and #11 scalpels, and single edge utility and oscillating microtome razors). Also, my sliding microtome blades, very likely the sharpest things that I've ever been in the same room with, are all V grind as well.
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Maybe I shouldn't have made it sound like all scalpels and razors are chisel grinds, as I have not seen every scalpel blade and razor blade there is. My main point I was trying to make was that chisel grinds can be made extremely sharp. As to fishbulb's response that scalpels and razors have chisel grinds because they are designed to be cheap, my initial comment was not to say chisel grinds were expensive, it was to prove that they can be sharp. I have sharpened my Mini Commander to the point that it will cut a hanging hair (a feat I didn't think possible until I did it myself). Anyway, I'm not satisfied with this edge because it is too smoothe, and doesn't slice really well. It shaves hair off my arm like nothing else, but that isn't why I carry my Mini Commander. I want it to slice through layers of clothing if needed in a SD situation. Therefore, I will use my fine DMT rod to rough it up a bit. Anyway, I will not argue the fact that chisel grinds aren't for every type of cutting. I personally, don't like them, but for what I carry my Emerson Mini Commander, that edge is just fine. I don't carry it for accurate detailed cutting, I carry it for SD. I carry a normal V-grind edge knife for other cutting tasks.

BTW, what are oscillating microtome razors? I've never heard of them.

Mike
 
Chisel ground blades, except in the kitchen, are special purpose designs. One example would be the leather paring knife which is used for cutting the suede side of leather in order to thin the leather for special uses such as bookbinding. The Japanese use chisel ground kitchen knives for some purposes in the kitchen. Traditional Japanese cutlery such as the sashimi and usuba are slicing knives designed to make very thin slices in material that is hard to slice delicately like raw fish. These knives are chisel ground and perform their intended purpose very well.

Why? because these kinds of knives need to be sharper than knives used for most other purposes and grinding a thin blade with a single bevel makes the bevel angle effectively half of what it would be with a normal V grind. So the more acute bevel angle means more "sharpness."

There are downsides to this practice as well. The first is that chisel ground edges are more delicate since they are thinner. The second is that, once you get past leather paring or preparing sushi, they don't perform particularly well in a wide variety of cutting applications and need to be used delicately since the edges are so acute. They are special purpose blades. So, if a knife is intended to be used for some purpose that benefits from a half bevel then it should be made that way. If it is intended to be a general purpose knife, then it really shouldn't in my opinion.

Why do manufacturers make them for general purpose knives? Most likely because consumers tend to equate sharpness with quality. People talk about "sharpness out of the box" all the time on this forum so you know that's the sentiment, right or wrong, and chisel ground knives are "sharper out of the box." Manufacturers are apparently catering to what consumers want.

Should you buy a chisel ground knife for some purpose for which it works well? Sure. I have a Japanese sashimi in my knife block and use it from time to time. It makes thin slices like no other knife in the block. Should you buy one as a general purpose knife? Not in my opinion for the reasons stated above. Take care.
 
Michael, no doubt about it my Intrepid has a chisel grind part serrated edge, the flat side is unpolished bead blasting. However the tip-tanto (?) egdge is V ground.
 
I see. It looks like my post has no relevance now. Someone had posted about the Intrepid before mine, but I guess he deleted his post. I had thought about picking up one of those Intrepids, but they seemed cumbersome in my hand. It's nice to see that Buck is breaking away from traditional knives though.
 
Buy one now! Yes it's heavy but I found it to very well balanced, I can't see anyone breaking one. It has to be a blade for heavy chopping splitting etc. I would agree it's the wrong tool for fine cutting, skinning etc.
 
Originally posted by Medic1210
BTW, what are oscillating microtome razors? I've never heard of them.
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They're just disposable blades for this little gadget that slices fresh, soft tissues (brains mostly) into largish (250 micron and up) sections. The "oscillating" part is because the blade vibrates back and forth really fast as the tissue is fed into it -- sort of a sawing push-cutter.
 
Originally posted by tribalbeeyatch
They're just disposable blades for this little gadget that slices fresh, soft tissues (brains mostly) into largish (250 micron and up) sections.
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And you say they aren't chisel grind? I would think that would be a perfect grind for that particular application since chisel grinds are good a slicing thin slices. That's why the Japanese make their knives like that.

Mike
 
My Standard Tanto by Ivan Campos in K-100 (a.k.a. D3, sort of like D2 on steroids) has a steep chisel grind and is the sharpest blade I own. It will shear arm hair without touching the skin, and that is on a substantially thick blade, almost .25". But it is a specialized grind -- Ivan calls his knives 'pocket swords' (with good reason) -- and it's not an all-round utility blade. It's the one I keep by the bedside in case things go "thump" in the night.:D
 
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