Chisel Ground Bevel Advantages and Disadvantages

[marcinek]

Thanks HwangJino! Fascinating stuff. All you guys who are really into the Japanese chef knives are the most obsessive knife nuts out there! It's pretty cool.

 

[G. Scott H.]

Sharpening in theory is easier, but for me I have trouble removing the burr without creating at least a semi-v edge.

That's been my experience too. I don't see any way around it, unless you lay the flat side of the blade (or primary bevel in the case of an Emerson, I would imagine) completely flat on the stone, which would be way too much work. I end up with sort of a micro bevel on the "unsharpened" side. Not a big deal for me, though.

 

[cncpro11]

I say with my experience, it's easier to sharpen but loses it's edge faster, not sure though that's just my personal experience

You have obviously never hacked up a piece of hardwood with the Richard J Kii.
That thing is a scary sharp demon.

About 30 good hard whacks into a chunk of Ash and still shaving sharp.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[richard j]

Yes the right handed yanagi has slight concave bevel to prevent meat from sticking to the steel.

its a very wide bevel, you can imagine how sharp it is.

Sujihiki is a very fine knife, I use mine for all prepwork, though some prefer gyuto, I like the suji because it is a quick performer with its slimmer
at first I sharpened it flat, much sharper but I find that convexing the bevel stayed sharper longer (though not as sharp as flat grind).

Sharpening a yanagi can be easy since the bevel is so large, you simply lay it flat against stone, however ive seen many chefs find it difficult to sharpen the tip and youll see the tip point downwards.

I can always tell a persons sharpening skill by examining the tip.

the steel on yanagi is white steel by yoshihiro, carbon steel.

im saving for honyaki grade steel on my next yanagi.
They swing at a purified block of carbon steel for a month to bubble out impurities, a 12" yanagi can cost $1000-50,000 depending on detail and bladesmith. Usually the guys making the pure steel knives have had knowledge since the samurai days.

They explained that when steel gets to be very pure the molecules start arranging and offer the smoothest cuts imaginable.

my kasumi (low grade) cuts super smooth but honyaki is amazing!!! No resistance at all.

the reason for extreme sharpness is that dull knives damage cell walls and unable to transmit flavor to tastebuds, while a sharp knife cuts cells releasing flavor.

i'm a big fan of chisel ground knives and i would love to try and make a sushi knife from some of the 1075 that i used to make k II out of. i bet you would be amazed. i would also like to see what kind of a difference the slotted paper wheel would make on an existing edge that you put on one of your knives.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I typically only chisel grind my Japanese style knives unless a client requests otherwise.

I have noted no difference in terms of performance when comparing chisel and "double ground" knives.

People seem to think that chisel ground knives seem to be easier to sharpen.

I tend to attribute this to the fact that it seems easier to establish and remove a burr on a chisel ground knife.

 

[HwangJino]

Huge difference in chisel and double bevel.... performance speaking.

 

[HwangJino]

I want this!!!!

you can see Cresent moon on side of blade near spine as it represents moon over mt fiji.

 

[GronK]

My only knife with V hollow grind and chisel ground final is a Buck Ion Fusion. The final bevel makes the super hard coating on one side the cutting edge. When cutting cardboard it gets sharper as you go since the stainless steel backing wears away leaving the coating/edge protruding. Sounds like hokum but it really works.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A lot of good info here but a lot of confusion as well. These guys hit really close to the mark:

It depends on what you want the knife for.

For utility, a chisel ground knife can be a detriment, as cutting with one (say, cardboard or a brick of cheddar) will have a directional bias. Meaning that the blade will want to angle and curve away from the direction you intend. Combine this with the unfortunate fact that the vast majority of chisel ground knives (including Emersons) are ground on the wrong side for 90% of the population (right-handed people) to be controllable in that regard. For utility, go with a typical V grind, or if you must have a chisel ground knife, find one that's ground on the proper side.

For self defense, it really doesn't matter.

Sharpening a chisel ground knife is typically easier, because you're not worried about keeping things symmetrical. Sharpen mainly one the ground side, and then do a couple light passes on the flat side, and you're good to go. Sharpness is merely a matter of acuteness of angle, and though the angle looks off-kilter on a chisel ground blade, the actual angle should be the same as a V ground blade.

If you've never tried using a chisel ground blade to cut cardboard, you should. Believe me you'll soon understand. Because it is flat on one side, and angled on the other, they tend to cut in an arc rather than a straight line. To compound the situation, in order to control it better, for right handers the ground side needs to be on the opposite side of the blade. Most all chisel ground, and serrated knifes for that matter, they are better suited for left handers as currently provided. The natural tendency of our wrist to impart motion on the knife counters the arc tendency if the ground side is correctly oriented. It's why I currently have no chisel ground blades, period.

That chisel edge is why I stopped carrying my Emersons and haven't bought another in years. V grind with chisel edge strikes me as sheer laziness on the part of a maker. Full chisel grind on a sushi knife I can see, but other than that, no thanks. BTDT, no need to go back.

In my opinion and experience, the negative is that they cut like garbage for most tasks. The positive is on the side of the maker because he only has to grind one side of the blade. I've never ever understood why one would grind both sides of a blade and then leave a chisel edge.

I'll start by saying this--chisel grinds/edges have literally nothing to do with sharpness. As Planterz mentions, sharpness is all about how thick the apex of your terminal bevel is. This should NOT be confused with edge angle, which is really what we're talking about here. In the case of a typical edge the angle is intended to be equal on both sides, and the industry standard is 20 degrees per side. Equal pressure on each side from the cutting medium makes for easy tracking through the cut since the forces are balanced. If you were to take that angle down to 15 degrees per side the geometry would cause the volume to be reduced and the ease of the cut increased. This increase of ease is often mistaken for the tool being sharper. In the case of a chisel ground edge you might have an edge of equal volume, but this would be a 0 degree angle on one side, and 40 degrees on the other. Many chisel grinds are thinner than that, hence the increased perception of sharpness. However, with only one side beveled the amount of push-back experienced is now lopsided and will contribute to drift during deep cuts.

The advantage (and disadvantage) of a chisel grind is that it alters the possible angles of approach the knife can make. If you try cutting at a lower angle than your edge angle you will glance off rather than cut because the edge shoulder is what's contacting the medium rather than the edge itself. This is one of the reasons why people often strike glancing blows with axes, which are often kept with a fairly broad edge angle. With a knife with an edge angle 20 degrees per side, the user can only approach the cut at an angle steeper than 20 degrees. Since the bevels are symmetrical, this is the same when cutting the opposite direction. With a chisel grind the 0-degree angle on one side means you can approach the cut at as shallow an angle as you so choose. This is, however, offset by the opposite side of the blade having a very steep approach to the target, as well as the unbalanced pushing force contributing to deviation during deep cuts and making the blade want to dive deep when cutting with that side. With a double-bevel grind but single bevel edge, the unground side of the edge instead is able to approach the cut at however shallow an angle the primary grind is at.

A strong shoulder like that found on the beveled side, eases in breaking from the cut, which is one of the advantages of using a scandi grind when carving wood, for instance. The shoulder acts as a fulcrum when making the break.

 

[cbxer55]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This board amazes me sometimes. On a day that I got two infractions for using a particular word with two -- in place of the uc, I get quoted by another poster as if I know what the f--- I am talking about.

Probably going to get another infraction for this one. ;-)

 

[elkins45]

Pro: you will finally understand why some folks who own Emersons never use them
Pro: useful if you need an actual chisel
Pro: only need to halfway learn how to sharpen
Pro: cutting in a straight line is so mainstream, you can show your individuality

Con: everything else

 

[HwangJino]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanagi_ba

my favorite knives are yanagi's.

 

[Lycosa]

I love the CG. It's so simple and functional... for me.
rolf

 

[Tony8179]

Pro: you will finally understand why some folks who own Emersons never use them
Pro: useful if you need an actual chisel
Pro: only need to halfway learn how to sharpen
Pro: cutting in a straight line is so mainstream, you can show your individuality

Con: everything else

I was giggling at this for quite awhile.

I do have a positive point for chisel grinds. I used a small American Kami a few times to strip lengths of very large wire and the chisel grind was on the proper side for a righty. This knife stripped wire excellently because the flat just rode the wire and the edge effortlessly flowed through the insulation like butter.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yup! They work great for specialized tasks. They're just commonly either limiting to or detract from general use applications.

 

[evilgreg]

Pro: you will finally understand why some folks who own Emersons never use them
Pro: useful if you need an actual chisel
Pro: only need to halfway learn how to sharpen
Pro: cutting in a straight line is so mainstream, you can show your individuality

Con: everything else

+1 to this, elkins45 put it better than I would have.

Generally, a chisel grind will just find ways to annoy you. If you need extra annoyances in your life, get a face tattoo, or maybe a chisel grind.