What is / are the benefit(s) of a chisel grind blade?
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[This message has been edited by Molly T (edited 01-20-2000).]
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[This message has been edited by Molly T (edited 01-20-2000).]
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Does anyone have examples of typical chisel-ground blades? I think they are more common in pocket knives than fixed blades but can't say I've seen one yet.
James is right about the advantages and disadvantages. I personally don't like chisel grind because I like to be able to cut in a straight line in certain applications.
The interesting thing is I just got a Running Dog Pup which uses an "asymetrical" grind. Basically it's a chisel grind but on the flat side there is a secondary bevel right at the edge. This allows it to cut a littler straighter though still not as straight as say a flat grind. I like this one better than a chisel.
Roger, a some of the tanto makers use chisel grind. Gigand knives carry Fred Carter designed "Mosquito" and "Guardian" fixed blades that use chisel grind. The "Mosquito" is a neck knife size tanto, while the Guardian is a 4" clip point blade. I think TOPS knives are also chisel grind.
sing
AKTI #A000356
The interesting thing is I just got a Running Dog Pup which uses an "asymetrical" grind. Basically it's a chisel grind but on the flat side there is a secondary bevel right at the edge. This allows it to cut a littler straighter though still not as straight as say a flat grind. I like this one better than a chisel.
Roger, a some of the tanto makers use chisel grind. Gigand knives carry Fred Carter designed "Mosquito" and "Guardian" fixed blades that use chisel grind. The "Mosquito" is a neck knife size tanto, while the Guardian is a 4" clip point blade. I think TOPS knives are also chisel grind.
sing
AKTI #A000356
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Why chisel ground blade would be stronger than double ground blade with the same thickness and the same beveling angle? Only because one side is flat what makes blade asymmetric relatively to handle symmetry plan? Nonsense...
This asymmetry creates asymmetric effort and resistance of cut material what generates much more difficulties to do precise cuts, that's right.
Is the chisel ground blade sharper than double ground one? Maybe, but due to sharper sharpening angle only. Resharpen your double ground blade to the same angle and you will obtain the same sharpness. But remember that edge with sharper angle is weaker.
Chisel ground blade allows precise wood whittling? Maybe it would be truth if the blade would be ground properly, with flat left side when knife is held with blade forward and with edge downward (for right-handed user of course). But a very most of knives with chisel ground blades have directly opposite grinding. The only knives ground properly for right-handed user I saw are BM Stryker (chisel ground version) and CRKT Stiff K.I.S.S.
With the rest of chisel ground knives wood whittling precision would be the same like with the chisel held upside-down, with flat side upwards. One nonsense more...
And why would I try to do precise wood whittling with chisel ground knife instead of true chisel?
I resharpened my Timberline Aviator's edge to conventional double-V sharpening and it became much easier to use. Of course I can't to regrind the blade... What a pity, it would be great knife if normal double beveled blade would be used instead of chisel grind.
In my opinion the single justification of chisel grind existence is aspirations to reduce production costs from manufacturer side. If one side of blade is flat it's no worries about grinding symmetry.
It's understandable if knife costs less than $30 like CRKT Stiff K.I.S.S. but it's absolutely unforgivable with knives in $150 or more.
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Sergiusz Mitin
gunwriter
Lodz, Poland
This asymmetry creates asymmetric effort and resistance of cut material what generates much more difficulties to do precise cuts, that's right.
Is the chisel ground blade sharper than double ground one? Maybe, but due to sharper sharpening angle only. Resharpen your double ground blade to the same angle and you will obtain the same sharpness. But remember that edge with sharper angle is weaker.
Chisel ground blade allows precise wood whittling? Maybe it would be truth if the blade would be ground properly, with flat left side when knife is held with blade forward and with edge downward (for right-handed user of course). But a very most of knives with chisel ground blades have directly opposite grinding. The only knives ground properly for right-handed user I saw are BM Stryker (chisel ground version) and CRKT Stiff K.I.S.S.
With the rest of chisel ground knives wood whittling precision would be the same like with the chisel held upside-down, with flat side upwards. One nonsense more...
And why would I try to do precise wood whittling with chisel ground knife instead of true chisel?
I resharpened my Timberline Aviator's edge to conventional double-V sharpening and it became much easier to use. Of course I can't to regrind the blade... What a pity, it would be great knife if normal double beveled blade would be used instead of chisel grind.
In my opinion the single justification of chisel grind existence is aspirations to reduce production costs from manufacturer side. If one side of blade is flat it's no worries about grinding symmetry.
It's understandable if knife costs less than $30 like CRKT Stiff K.I.S.S. but it's absolutely unforgivable with knives in $150 or more.
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Sergiusz Mitin
gunwriter
Lodz, Poland
I have absolutely no use for any blade that is chisel ground. I think the only reason makers make chisel ground blades is that it is only half the work of grinding both sides. They should be outlawed, just as serations should.
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janefromnc
walker
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janefromnc
walker
Sergiusz Mitin summarized my thoughts pretty good.
In addition, a few thoughts to ponder....
Why do the production companies put the grind on the wrong side (for right handed users)? I believe it is so they will photograph nice. How many magazine ads do you see with a folder knife shown pocket clip side up? Think about it. Which side does a right handed user want the grind on? Which side does the pocket clip belong on? For left handed users, the pocket clip is still on the right side (or is that wrong side?).
In general, Hype. There are a few specialized uses where a chisel ground knife will really work well but, how many people actually use a knife in that application? Most people who buy a chisel ground pocket folder are doing so based on HYPE and marketing. Before I became an educated knife buyer/user, I beleived the HYPE and bought a chisel ground Benchmade (combo-edge no less
)!
Don't get me wrong though, chisel grinds do have a place in the real world of a daily user for some people and some applications.
Stay Sharp,
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 01-29-2000).]
In addition, a few thoughts to ponder....
Why do the production companies put the grind on the wrong side (for right handed users)? I believe it is so they will photograph nice. How many magazine ads do you see with a folder knife shown pocket clip side up? Think about it. Which side does a right handed user want the grind on? Which side does the pocket clip belong on? For left handed users, the pocket clip is still on the right side (or is that wrong side?).
In general, Hype. There are a few specialized uses where a chisel ground knife will really work well but, how many people actually use a knife in that application? Most people who buy a chisel ground pocket folder are doing so based on HYPE and marketing. Before I became an educated knife buyer/user, I beleived the HYPE and bought a chisel ground Benchmade (combo-edge no less
Don't get me wrong though, chisel grinds do have a place in the real world of a daily user for some people and some applications.
Stay Sharp,
Sid
[This message has been edited by Sid Post (edited 01-29-2000).]
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For the most part chisel grinding is a fad. The only real advantage is if you want an asymetric cutting action. Early Hungarian sabres were chisel ground to deflect away from the user when swinging from a horse. A thin cheese knife works well if chisel ground on the right side. This reduces friction against the cheese and shaves thin slices well. A razor blade or a whittling knife would be other good, but highly specialized uses.
Many current knives serve no utilitarian purpose (they are "tactical"). Since they see no real use they can conform to the fancifull whims of designers and marketing people. If you try to cut straight with a chisel grind you immediately start to wonder why it's made assymetrically. If you chop something tough like bone with a chisel grind, and see the edge roll over to the flat side, you will also ask yourself why you sacrificed the strength of the symmetrical grind. Then you ask yourself why symmetrical edges have been the predominant edge design for thousands of years.
Many current knives serve no utilitarian purpose (they are "tactical"). Since they see no real use they can conform to the fancifull whims of designers and marketing people. If you try to cut straight with a chisel grind you immediately start to wonder why it's made assymetrically. If you chop something tough like bone with a chisel grind, and see the edge roll over to the flat side, you will also ask yourself why you sacrificed the strength of the symmetrical grind. Then you ask yourself why symmetrical edges have been the predominant edge design for thousands of years.
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I think the only real good use for a chisel ground blade would be in food preperation.
I understand the Japanese use this type of grind on their kitchen knives and many actually prefer this type of grind for kitchen work.
Also, if the knife is going to be used strictly for self defense, cutting thru clothing and flesh and such, would the ability to make a straight cut be as important with the idea being to inflict as much damage as possible?
Does it matter that the flesh cut be laser straight? I don't know...
For general utility type uses, I have no use for this type of grind. I insist that my knives be of the double bevel persuasion.
They cut straighter, don'tchaknow?
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If it's stupid but works, then it isn't stupid!
[This message has been edited by misque (edited 01-29-2000).]
I understand the Japanese use this type of grind on their kitchen knives and many actually prefer this type of grind for kitchen work.
Also, if the knife is going to be used strictly for self defense, cutting thru clothing and flesh and such, would the ability to make a straight cut be as important with the idea being to inflict as much damage as possible?
Does it matter that the flesh cut be laser straight? I don't know...
For general utility type uses, I have no use for this type of grind. I insist that my knives be of the double bevel persuasion.
They cut straighter, don'tchaknow?
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If it's stupid but works, then it isn't stupid!
[This message has been edited by misque (edited 01-29-2000).]
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Interesting opinions on the chisel grind! I carry a Hartsfield Kozuka w/chisel ground blade everyday and use it for everything. I have not found any other knife that will cut like this knife does or hold the edge. I have a Reeve Sebenza, an Elishwitz folder, Boye folder and others(all of them great knives), and many production knives. But they still don't cut like the Kozuka. When I do need to touch up the edge I can easily do it myself on a strop or take it to Phill for the ultimate edge. This edge is truly chisel-ground: flat on one side and ground to the edge on the other, no secondary grind. I have not had any problems making straight cuts. Don't get me wrong I like all the knives I have but the one I use is the Kozuka. Stay Sharp!
Cliff Stamp
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James :
[chisel grind]
You can sharpen a v-ground blade in the same manner. You don't have to switch sides when grinding. You will just end up moving the point of the edge off of the centerline. Eventually you will have a chisel ground bevel.
Will :
[compared to v-grinds]
If they were ground at the same angle which they rarely are.
Sergiusz :
It just requires a different technique. You have to push down and a little opposite to the flat side of the blade to get a straight cut.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 02-22-2000).]
[chisel grind]
You can sharpen a v-ground blade in the same manner. You don't have to switch sides when grinding. You will just end up moving the point of the edge off of the centerline. Eventually you will have a chisel ground bevel.
Will :
[compared to v-grinds]
If they were ground at the same angle which they rarely are.
Sergiusz :
It just requires a different technique. You have to push down and a little opposite to the flat side of the blade to get a straight cut.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 02-22-2000).]