APF, if it was not for this wording I would agree: "or by other mechanical contrivance", this does not include the normal "handle of the knife" or even "automatic opening" the two phases the AO system was designed to work around as it list them first and then adds this language to cover any special opening system. In the wording of this law , ANY folder being able to be flicked open is also illegal. As a former NYC LEO who spent far too many days out of the sun in court, I must say this guy seems to be in clear violation of the wording of the city ordiance quoted ( no less in a court house).
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Chive a "deadly weapon" in Wichita
- Thread starter acourvil
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- Dec 2, 2006
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- 616
Yes, but "mechanical contrivance" does not apear to be defined, or even to have any commonly understood meaning. In addition, the language refers to "commonly referred to as a switchblade," and I think that a pretty strong argument can be made that a knife with a speedsafe mechanism is not "commonly referred to as a switchblade." None of that gets you out of an issue with a LEO trying to do his or her job, but it might get you to the right result if you can bear to go through the appropropriate legal process.
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- Apr 11, 2007
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- 1,337
Durpee do, I am the court solicitor and I say the blade is in the handle, durrrrr. :jerkit:
PS: That is contempt for what the solicitor might say, not for you.
The chive does not open automatically. You must manually push or pull on the blade itself to get movement started. When closed, the torsion around the pivot of the blade is biased toward keeping the knife closed, just like an ordinary knife. One must move the blade manually to some angle where the torsion around the pivot reverses direction and the "assist" starts.
I have a regular "Uncle Henry" type 3 blade knife in my hand. Each of the blades is biased to spring back closed until I open it to reach the angle at which friction will hold the blade part way open. As I continue to manually push the blade further open, another angle is reached where the blade will continue under the cam/spring action to the fully open position.
The chive operates on much the same principle, only that the torsion force around the pivot point is enough and friction is low enough upon manually reaching the right angle that the blade continues around to the fully open position. This angle just happens to be much smaller, (something like 30 degrees) than the Uncle Henry type. The point is, the blade must be manually opened initially. This is not "automatic".
From Merriam-Webster...
au·to·mat·ic [aw-tuh-mat-ik]
having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently
This implies to me that "opens automatically" means something else must make the blade open from the start, such as a button releasing the stored energy in a wound, compressed, or tensioned spring to thrust the blade out. There is no mechanical device (mechanical contrivance) in this knife that causes the blade to open "automatically".
I have a regular "Uncle Henry" type 3 blade knife in my hand. Each of the blades is biased to spring back closed until I open it to reach the angle at which friction will hold the blade part way open. As I continue to manually push the blade further open, another angle is reached where the blade will continue under the cam/spring action to the fully open position.
The chive operates on much the same principle, only that the torsion force around the pivot point is enough and friction is low enough upon manually reaching the right angle that the blade continues around to the fully open position. This angle just happens to be much smaller, (something like 30 degrees) than the Uncle Henry type. The point is, the blade must be manually opened initially. This is not "automatic".
From Merriam-Webster...
au·to·mat·ic [aw-tuh-mat-ik]
having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently
This implies to me that "opens automatically" means something else must make the blade open from the start, such as a button releasing the stored energy in a wound, compressed, or tensioned spring to thrust the blade out. There is no mechanical device (mechanical contrivance) in this knife that causes the blade to open "automatically".
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 1,277
I live here in the fine city of Wichita Kansas and assisted openers are banned for carry within the city limits. They are not illegal to own, just illegal to carry. That is how the retailers get around it. This i why I do not buy anymore of them. For some reason the AO is somehow super dangerous in the city's mind. You can carry fixed blades and even expandable batons but not assisted openers. It is really one of the dumbest laws I have seen.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2005
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- 8,330
Well, the knife should have been carried with the safety on, then. I do that with all my speedsafe knives if for no other reason than I've had a Leek open in my pocket before and cut myself reaching in.
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- Dec 26, 2006
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- 10,795
Hey jfletch, do you mean that retailers within the city limits can sell them? If so, how do you get them home?
Often times there is a distinction between "carry", "possession" and etc. The distinction is often one of control. For instance if it was in its packaging in a shopping bag or backpack it is not in your direct control. I wouldn't want to have to argue that distinction in court, but I have made that distinction to an ADA before in an advisory role, and they seemed to buy it.
IF they were illegal in Wichita, they would be illegal to sell. The first listed offense in the city ordinance is to sell:
Title 5 PUBLIC SAFETY AND MORALS
Sec. 5.88.010. Unlawful use of weapons.
(1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:
(a) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing or carrying any bludgeon, sandclub, metal knuckles or throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switch-blade, which, having the appearance of a pocket knife, also has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or by other mechanical contrivance, or any knife having a blade that opens or falls or is ejected into position by the force of gravity or by an outward, downward or centrifugal thrust or movement;
My contention is that the those charged with enforcing the law don't understand their own law. The key here is that the knife does not open automatically. As I posted above, it opens manually. Kershaw has been through this many times already in court. Wichita didn't even write the wording of this law, it was taken word for word the same as in other states where this type of knife has been declared legal. A matter of fact, the State of KS has declared them legal.
An analogy:
- If this was the front door of a house, and all you needed to do was ring the doorbell and the door sprung open this would be automatic.
- If you were required to turn the knob and push the door part way open and then some other force (i.e. gravity) took over until in the fully open position, it should be manually opening, but with assistance once open.
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2007
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- 314
The police didn't have to arrest him. They could always use "officer discretion" as a way around it like they do when they do not want to enforce a law for what ever reason.
speaking as a former stoner, I can tell you that crack pipes, bongs, weed pipes, etc, are all "for smoking tobacco" the fact that A- they're not good for smoking tobacco in, and B- that they're not actually designed for smoking tobacco doesn't mean that you can't smoke tobacco out of them, which is what all the manufacturers/sellers claim is their purpose.
On that note, having a bong, crack pipe, etc. in your car is not illegal until you have residue from illegal use on it, then it is considered "drug paraphernalia."
Continuing on, possession of a freshly sharpened pencil is no crime, but if I stab you in your adam's apple, I'll be charged with "assault with a deadly weapon." Unless it can be proven that you had malicious intent, or the very device itself is specifically outlawed, possession of a knife is not "possession of a deadly weapon."
bookworm, there are many people in jail who wish your statement was true, but in many states possession of knives in and of themselves is enough to have a valid arrest and conviction. I wish use and or clear intent to use a knife illegally was needed but it is not....
It would have been nice if that were true. In cases like this, "officer discretion" is not allowed in Wichita. As some sort of policy, Wichita LEOs "must arrest" if they believe the knife is illegal (words from the arresting officer himself). He and his partner did not personally want to make the arrest. They called their superior officer to avoid this result. The only discretion they are allowed is in determining if it is an illegal knife. In this determination, they were mistaken -- it is not an illegal knife. I don't fault the officers directly. I point fault to their training and the ridiculous policy.
they shouldn't be in jail unless the knife they carried was specifically outlawed, or they used it in a malicious way.
Bookworm, in the real world, the above law could be interperted to ban almost any folding knife. Any knife that could be flicked opening ( even holding the blade and flicking the handle) and in this case the knife does not even have to lock open ( worse than NYC !!)....that is not "specific" but that clearly is the law.....I don't like it and I assume that you don't either but that is what is written and as you stated your back ground as a former "stoner" I am a former NYC LEO ....I also graduated college in 1981, I saw in another thread you started in this section that you are a senoir in high school....It is far better to try to understand the law than to challenge it by violation of the law. This law is too inclusive and bans almost all knives that fold. It should be challenged in court or over turned by the local town council that passed it.....work on that and you will be doing some good !!! A former "stoner" and you are a senior in HS ??
yes, it could be, and luckily for us it hasn't. If people really thought about it, the fact that virtually anyone, anywhere could legally have the power to kill you within a few seconds of their deciding to do so, and you may not ever have known that it was within their grasp. Carrying a folding knife (even more so one that can be opened one-handed) is a great power that we should be glad we are allowed to exercise. By Bump is legal unless I step onto school property (even colleges in CA) or threaten someone with it.
yes, I've made some mistakes in my time, but don't interpret that to mean I'm slacking off, I just nailed my first 4.0 in 6 years, with 3 APs (Second year calculus, physics, macroeconomics). I take care to understand the laws for whatever activity I do (whether it involves toeing the line or crossing it) which is why I understand the reasoning behind the sale of bongs, the joys (sarcasm) of my city outlawing BB and paintball guns (anything that uses compressed air to fire a projectile)
I will look into that law, and will do my best to at the very least write a strong argument for knife rights, though it will be an uphill battle, I'll do my best.
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2007
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- 452
I live in wichita and this is the first I have heard about this. I have been to the city building several times both for traffic tickets and actual buisness. Sometimes I forget my toys are in my pocket, sometimes they stay in the car.
When I realize that i have brought a knife in I am upfront about it just like the 'victim' was. Generally the screeners are cool and calm and I put my knife in the bag and sign my name blah blah blah... no problem. But sometimes there is an a**hole who wants to threaten me with being arrested for having a widgy bar on my keychain, while I was in city uniform wearing my badge on the outside, clipped to my left breast pocket.
I agree that if these AO knives are illegal then why can they be found at Gander Mtn, Sportsmans wharehouse, Sports Authority, and SOME wal-marts, not all of them. Not the ones that are in areas of town where the residents are predominatly black, mexican, asian or any other minority. Neither will these stores sell guns of any kind.
So i think that the 'victim' needs to get an attorony and sue the city, this knife is not illegal and too much discretion is left up to the screeners/officers.
When I realize that i have brought a knife in I am upfront about it just like the 'victim' was. Generally the screeners are cool and calm and I put my knife in the bag and sign my name blah blah blah... no problem. But sometimes there is an a**hole who wants to threaten me with being arrested for having a widgy bar on my keychain, while I was in city uniform wearing my badge on the outside, clipped to my left breast pocket.
I agree that if these AO knives are illegal then why can they be found at Gander Mtn, Sportsmans wharehouse, Sports Authority, and SOME wal-marts, not all of them. Not the ones that are in areas of town where the residents are predominatly black, mexican, asian or any other minority. Neither will these stores sell guns of any kind.
So i think that the 'victim' needs to get an attorony and sue the city, this knife is not illegal and too much discretion is left up to the screeners/officers.