Choosing a new steel for marketing reasons?

Bob Ohlemann

Bob Ohlemann

Joined
Dec 5, 2013
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This is most likely a new maker issue. I doubt established makers sit around worrying about these things but, I've been thinking that I need to switch steels. Everything I've made to date has been in 440C. Personally I think it's a great steel but, it doesn't get much respect among buyers. I attribute this to the possibly billions of cheap knives out of China wearing the "440 Stainless" stamp. So, I'm thinking of switching mostly for marketing reasons. I realize that the steel should suit the intended purpose of the knife but, my direction right now is nice general purpose blades. I'm thinking ATS34 or CPM154 but, I am open to suggestions. I want to stick with a stainless alloy and will do my own HT. My finishes are pretty much anything but mirror polish. What do you guys think?

Bob
 
I'm tagging this because I noticed the same issue this year at the blade show when sitting with a mentor/established maker. He uses a lot of 440C and I believe he would have sold more knives that day if they were CPM154 or some other "more premium" steel. I'd like to see if more established makers have noticed this as well. Outside of a show with more sophisticated buyers, I have found that average people don't ask nor care what the steel is other than an occasional "is this stainless?". *Keep in mind this is my experience as a new maker/hobbyist and I have less interaction with the public. I will eventually sell some knives but don't advertise, take orders, etc so I have less exposure to buyers.
 
I thought of the same issue, although I had not had anyone directly say. To update my knives I did start using CPM 154, I think it is a better steel with similar characteristics to 440c. I also started offering CPM3v, which has better edge holding ability for the more informed buyer who can handle sharpening.
 
As I just started making I will give you my opinion from a buyers viewpoint since I've bought a lot of knives over the years.

At the knife shows around here you see a lot of 440 and old disc blade knives. The sellers around here promote that the old disc blade metal is far superior to anything that is being created now (I don't believe this to be true, but it's not worth arguing with them over. Everyone has their opinion. I find it hard to believe we'd take a step backwards in technology and metallurgy advancement). The 440 I noticed looking up online a LOT of Pakistani knives are made out of 440. If you are going to spend $300 plus on a knife a buyer who has done research is going to want something better than someone using the same materials you can buy a $30 knife out of Pakistan for. Even if it's not right it's just how the mind thinks. At knife shows you are going to get enthusiasts who have problem searched online knives and done some research.

Just my 2 cents. Having some knives in a designer or higher end steel will stand you out to the people who google and research everything to death. It'll also make you stand out from a lot of other makers who will still be using 440c.
 
Triought said:
The 440 I noticed looking up online a LOT of Pakistani knives are made out of 440. If you are going to spend $300 plus on a knife a buyer who has done research is going to want something better than someone using the same materials you can buy a $30 knife out of Pakistan for. Even if it's not right it's just how the mind thinks. At knife shows you are going to get enthusiasts who have problem searched online knives and done some research.
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That illustrates Bob's point well. The "440" label is slapped on all kinds of junk knives. In reality, there's 440A, 440B, and 440C. A and B are not good knife steels, but alot of overseas companies will use 440B and label it simply 440. 440C is a fine knife steel, capable of good performance. If they'd re-name it or something, it would sell fine. As is, though, it's too easily mixed up with its junk cousins.

Thats' why I stick with CM154.
 
Just my opinion....but AEBL might be worth considering. Razor blade steel....that should be good marketing!
 
CPM-154 and AEB-L are both excellent alloys. That's the reason to use them.

My gut instinct is, People who don't know the difference won't care. People who do know the difference won't be impressed by "marketing".
 
^ I don't know. The folks who buy on this forum know the difference, and you're going to have a lot more buyers for 154CM than 440C. The $10 difference can be made up double in the price and there will be twice as many buyers.

What kills me is the lack of interest in D2. Buyers want CPMS35VN and 3V etc. Good D2 will give them a solid spanking where it counts but nobody wants it...
 
As a buyer only, I will say that I would be much more likely to buy a knife in CPM154 over one in 440C, with that said, I've only purchased 3 custom knives so far, 2 in CPM-10V and one in 3V. IMO, if I'm going to be paying $200-$300 plus for a custom knife I want quality (which can be had from many production companies) and also uniqueness (which cannot be had from production companies) 440C, S30V, and D2 can be found every where for as little as $50 for quality blades (I'm thinking Boker, they seem to use a lot of 440C) so steels that aren't seen often, is definitely a plus for me. I think that's something Jerry Busse has done well in, because INFI can only be tried if you buy from him. CPM154, at least in production companies you don't see often.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
What kills me is the lack of interest in D2. Buyers want CPMS35VN and 3V etc. Good D2 will give them a solid spanking where it counts but nobody wants it...
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Hear hear.
I'd add a qualification, though- <Using Nathan's heat treatment sequence>, D2 is currently my favorite high alloy steel. I'm getting a very fine and durable edge, with very good corrosion resistance.
Currently I'm selling at local farmers' markets, though, and 49/50 prospective customers don't get beyond "Most of these cooking knives are High Carbon Steel." The other guy usually wants to know if I make damascus :) I want to know if he has $5-600 to drop on a nice knife, but usually don't ask :)
When I sell a D2 or stainless knife, it's the design more than the qualities of the steels that make the sale.

Other venues would be quite different, and it's good to hear what's selling at real shows!
 
People,
As a factory sales rep for mechanical products (pumps, boilers, parts for jet fighters and the space station, fire hydrants, etc) I can see you are missing the point. At a knife show, you are salesmen, not knife makers. Don't use 440C - use AEB-L and explain the effect of higher heat treat. That takes 440 knives from China out of the discussion. Use PM steels and explain how they allow higher alloying and smaller (better) carbides with vanadium, tungsten, etc. Explain why M390 should be able to skin at least 3 deer between sharpenings when it is getting dark and cold in the field.

If you are using high carbon, explain how you can get such a fine edge with 52100.

Most people won't know this stuff but once they do they can understand why your knife is worth $350 while that pretty knife from Pakistan is only worth $30 or the 440x knife from china is only worth $25.

Of course, there are always some people who don't want to be confused by the facts. Fine, send them to the next table or to the table of Pakastani knives.

Tim
 
In my opinion steel choice is a critical element if you sell mid priced (anywhere from $200-800) knives. This is especially true if you are marketing (or just selling as it were) to informed buyers, or mainly the people here at BF.

I think the same model range is a good idea with a good carbon or tool steel, but a choice in PM steel is a good idea.

There's a reason why Ankersons Edge Retention thread in Knife Reviews is so popular.

Super popular stainless alloys are 3v, m390 (and equivalents), xhp, and any of the other newer alloys from Crucible and Bohler.

I'm not sure that buyers realize how much more expensive the super steels are to buy and work, but there's no reason why that shouldn't be explained along with the steels benefits.
 
You will find the buying public follows several trends...almost all started by industry leaders through their advertising hype. The other big tend setter is magazine articles. That said, there are a few names that the public recognizes as meaning good.

In stainless, AEB-L means sharp, CPM-S35VN means sharp and long edge life, and Elmax means tough as heck. Any of these will get buyers faster than 440-C stainless. CPM-154 is also still popular.

For carbon blades, 52100 is hot and you just plain can't loose with Hitachi steels. If I had a yanagi-ba in W2 priced at $150, and an identical one in Hitachi white paper steel priced at $300,...... the one in Hitachi steel would probably sell first. Of course they would be virtually indistinguishable from each other in use and looks.
 
tim37a said:
People,
As a factory sales rep for mechanical products (pumps, boilers, parts for jet fighters and the space station, fire hydrants, etc) I can see you are missing the point. At a knife show, you are salesmen, not knife makers. Don't use 440C - use AEB-L and explain the effect of higher heat treat. That takes 440 knives from China out of the discussion. Use PM steels and explain how they allow higher alloying and smaller (better) carbides with vanadium, tungsten, etc. Explain why M390 should be able to skin at least 3 deer between sharpenings when it is getting dark and cold in the field.

If you are using high carbon, explain how you can get such a fine edge with 52100.

Most people won't know this stuff but once they do they can understand why your knife is worth $350 while that pretty knife from Pakistan is only worth $30 or the 440x knife from china is only worth $25.

Of course, there are always some people who don't want to be confused by the facts. Fine, send them to the next table or to the table of Pakastani knives.

Tim
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Great post! I find educating my customers is my best practice. I ask them what they want the knife to do, then make recommendations. Even though I know 440c is a perfectly fine steel, it is too common, and associated with low end. Its the same unfortunately with 1084. People think its a "beginner" steel. Its perfectly fine for knives though.
 
I run several hundred knifemaker projects per year totaling thousands of blades.
CPM154 is by far the most popular followed by 3V then it's all over the boards on the rest of the alloys.
440C is about as common as hens teeth with my customers.
 
I decided to go ahead and order up some CPM-S35Vn and see how that works out. I get a lot of questions about edge retention so I think I'm on the right track. I am also interested in the AEB-L but don't want to be trying to do too many new things at once.

Bob
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
^ I don't know. The folks who buy on this forum know the difference, and you're going to have a lot more buyers for 154CM than 440C. The $10 difference can be made up double in the price and there will be twice as many buyers.
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I was unclear... what I meant was, people who understand the differences don't care about "hype", they're seeking out certain alloys because of their own research and experience. I absolutely agree that they're willing to pay a little extra. :thumbup:

As for Busse/INFI, sure there's a lot of marketing involved, but I don't know of anyone who's tested them and found them to be poor quality steel - including some folks who were pretty clearly setting out with an agenda of "taking them down a peg". They wouldn't have stayed this popular for this long if it wasn't actually good steel and HT. So I'm not really sure where that falls on the "hype/real quality continuum".

Great posts above about informing customers, especially ones who aren't steel geeks who read up on this stuff for fun.

RangerBobTX said:
I decided to go ahead and order up some CPM-S35Vn and see how that works out. I get a lot of questions about edge retention so I think I'm on the right track. I am also interested in the AEB-L but don't want to be trying to do too many new things at once.
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That seems like a good plan to me. :)
 
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