Choosing between two pack rifles.

Pritch

Pritch

Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
1,819
Hi Guys. I've been wanting a lightweight "survival" rifle for a while. I've decided against .22s like the AR-7 and the M6. I want a caliber with enough oomph that would be capable of taking big game. I also want it to be small enough to conceal completely within my pack. This is not my primary hunting weapon but if I'm trekking during hunting season, I'd like a rifle (carbine?) capable of and legal for taking big game in my area.

There are two possible choices that I am considering and I would appreciate your input.

I am attracted to th Kel Tec SU-16C, which is chambered in .223 and folds down to under 24". Optics are not affected by folding the weapon as the stock folds under the rifle. It can also be fired while in the folded position.
sub16c_pic01.jpg

The downside with this caliber is that it is illegal in my state for all big game animals except cougar.

Kel Tec makes another weapon that might also suffice. The Sub-2000 is a folding carbine available in .40 S&W.
sub2000_01.jpg

It has a 16" barrel and folds down to an amazing 16". .40 is a legal caliber for all big game animals in my state as well. Cariations are available to use stock magazines from several popular pistols, such as the Glock 22. This brings with it the possibility of sharing both ammunition and magazines.

Downsides are that the top folding design precludes using optics or a red dot sight. Also, although the caliber diameter makes it legal for taking big game, I'm concerned that it will have significantly less range and energy as compared to the .223.

This would probably be a lot easier if I had the chance to handle or fire each of these before deciding. Unfortunately, I would have to order sight unseen.

So what do you think?

-- FLIX
 
I don't have the SU-16C, so can't comment on it, but I do have the Sub-2000 in .40.

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This is a nicely made, reliable little carbine. Personally, I think optics of any sort are a waste of time on this rifle. It is (IMO) strictly a 50 yards or less shooter. I believe white tail could be taken with this rifle, but certainly not my first choice for the job. It does fold down and pack very small. It is my choice as a car-bug out gun, but I wouldn't want to pack it if I didn't have to.

Andy
 
I always thought TC was missing the boat not offering a folding stock, hinged just behind the pistol grip on their 16.6" barreled carbines. Tough to find a carbine for big game that fits in a pack. Being in WA, Elk and Black Bear are big game- exactly what size animal are you considering and distance of shots in your AO?? Also what price range are you looking at?
2Door
 
Andy,

I'm glad you posted. I saw you mention that you have a Sub-2000 in the other Surivial Rifle thread. Your input is helpful.

Imalterna,


You would think that if TC won't step up, somebody in the aftermarket would offer one. Usually, if I am in the woods with the specific intent of hunting, I'll have my bow with me. That being said, I'd like a packable rifle to allow for hunting if I am out just woodsbumming and the opportunity arises.

On the west side here, cover is very thick and shot distances are often very close. OTOH, there are always times where some tasty tidbit is hanging out in the middle of a clearing where you have no way of closing the distance.

I'd like the capacity to take everything from elk to grouse, provided the right shot presents itself.

-- FLIX
 
I can't comment directly on the firearms you have identified because I don't own them (I have an M6 and a Henry version of the AR7, among others). However, I've read some test reports in which the accuracy proved unremarkable and reliability only fair. I figure that my 7 1/2" Freedom Arms revolver in 454 Casull is more accurate and potent (and, unfortunately, expensive).

As the other poster noted, a lot of folks consider these carbines to be 50 yard guns when I wish they were 100+ yd firearms. I really like the concept of these carbines and have seriously considered them. If they can improve the accuracy and reliability a bit, I'll probably be unable to resist.

Too bad that the price of M1 carbines has gone through the roof. One of my friends had a folding/collapsible stock model that was reasonably compact, pretty accurate, and very reliable.

DancesWithKnives
 
Hmm well a couple of thoughts about calibres, I have shot plenty of goats and smaller animals (rabits and possums, turkeys) with .22 and found it very capable, it is also very cheap and easy to carry lots of it.

I have shot both boar and deer with .223 and it worked lovely on the boar but the shot disintergrated on the deer.

For big game .308 seems to be minimal but if you have ever shot a birt with it - nothing left but feathers and you go hungry, I would say smaller calibre would do you better in the long run for survival where you are eating what you can get and a big rifle as a serious hunting rifle.
 
I have not shot either of the rifes but handled both. I would lean towards the SU-16C for a few reasons though.

From handling and initial impressions the Su-16 seemed to be better quality and didn't have as much rough finishing on it. I know they are made by the same company but that my take. I also like the folding of the SU-16C better. The Sub-2000 can't shoot while folded and it seemed like the gun needed to have better protection while folded to prevent damage/debris from affecting critical parts. The SU-16C also uses a caliber that I would think is better for larger animals/distances.

The Sub-2000 would be nice though if you had a pistol that shared ammo/magazines.

I own a Marlin Camp 9, so what do I know.
 
If the true purpose is the acquisition of food, why not just get a T/C single shot with a scope in pretty much whatever caliber you wanted?
 
Three comments I would make:

1. although I am not a huge fan of .223 I am sure it packs a lot more punch than .40, although if you can't hit much past 50m it probably doesn't matter too much. Neither round is especially effective against cover. Both would probably be pretty effective on people at short range.

2. .40 is a lot cheaper than .223 though!

3. Only one of these rifles looks like it could be fired "closed." I don't know whether that matters to you or not, but it's something I would consider, personally.
 
I'm not sure I would classify the .40 or .223 as 'big game' calibers. They'll do for some types of small-medium sized game, and for two legged problems. Past that and I think your treading on thin ice ethically.

If defense is your notion, I think either will do. I've heard ruggedness issues about both keltec rifles, but with modest use you'll probably be fine (I can't cite sources).

If game is what you're after, a 12ga single shot will solve lots of problems. Lots of game types, can use slugs for big stuff, bird shot for squirrels and birds. Lots of options, not much to go wrong, not much weight. :thumbup:
 
Savage 99 takedown in 30-06. Load 110 gr. bullets for lighter stuff, and 220's for the heavy stuff.
 
is there a good take down 12 ga? You can get 120 yards dead on accurate with a sabot brenneke- and with a good selection of 4,6,8 shot you can take your pigeon, too :)
 
spooky- if you find one tell me.

Or I might just find a 20 ga. beater at the next gun show and see what I can do about a folding stock, 18 inch bbl, and iron sights. Garage gunsmithing, yeehaw.
 
koyote said:
spooky- if you find one tell me.

Or I might just find a 20 ga. beater at the next gun show and see what I can do about a folding stock, 18 inch bbl, and iron sights. Garage gunsmithing, yeehaw.
Click to expand...

Just getcha an 870. They take down pretty small, depending on barrel length. You can cut the stock down too, somewhat.

Andy
 
Takedown shotguns are a good idea. I have a 12 ga Winchester single shot that can be broken down with modest effort and a 20 ga Model 12 Winchester pump that breaks down with almost no effort. The 20 ga pump feels only a bit heavier than the 12 ga single.

DancesWithKnives
 
Rem870Dlask.jpg

Ever hear of these? Dlask 8.5 inch bbl 3+1 shot pump action. It's legal in Canada somehow, but has to be over 27'' oal.
 
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Of the two you've shown, I've only fired the SU-16CA, which is a California legal version of the C model you have shown. The difference is the CA has the full stock and can't be fired in the folded possition. Other than that, they are the same. It was accurate out to 200 yards with black hills ammo, if you can call 4" groups accurate, but that's good enough on deer and 2 leggeds.
 
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