Choosing toothy or polished based on steel?

U

uofaengr

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Jan 9, 2014
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From the expert sharpeners who sharpen and actually use different steels a lot, do you have certain steels you take to the finest polish and some you leave fairly toothy?

I have a lot of S30V and S35VN and lately have been leaving these somewhat toothy for my personal use and have always heard they perform better toothy. I sharpen a good many knives for others and they mostly all want theirs with the highest polish for extreme sharpness and aesthetics, but I've grown away from putting high polishes on my own knives. I used to have a Gayle Bradley in M4 and remember it liked a high polish and seemed like it would keep that fine edge fairly well.

I have a good variety of knives but the modern steels I have are limited to S30V (5), S35VN (4), Cruwear (1), VG-10 (1), D2 (2), and 154CM (1) excluding my SAKs, Leatherman, and several old traditionals I have. I recently finally sharpened my 3" XM-18 to 1000 grit on the WEPS at 22 dps with a few passes of a 3.5u strop which has been my go to lately for S30V and S35VN. I used it on a little bit of cardboard and seemed like it already needed a stropping so I stropped it up with my KnivesPlus strop block and it's slowly becoming more and more polished. I'm considering putting it back on the WEPS starting with the ceramics and going through the time and progression for an extreme polish...
 
High alloy steels, typically those with 4% or more vanadium I like to sharpen on a DMT Coarse then strop with 1 micron diamond. This combo of toothy plus polished provides some of the best edge performance on high alloy steels.

Mid grade alloy steels like ELMAX, A2, Hap40, etc. receive a little finer edge 2000 grit Shapton is usually used here and is my common finishing place for 90% of my Sharpening.

Very hard steels, usually with lower alloy content are those that I put an even finer edge on. Usually, it's task specific at this point and the edge needs to be smooth and extremely sharp. Straight razors, speciality Japanese Kitchen knives, wood chisels, you get the idea.
 
Grit is for jobs, not for steel. Some steels hold a fine or toothy edge better. 400-600 grit is great for most EDC tasks. Lower grit is better for most fiberous materials. Highly polished for push cutting. What sort of super abusive tasks require 22 DPS on your Hinderer, or is it for aesthetics?
 
I wouldn't waste your time putting a polished edge on your XM-18 unless it's purely for looks. If you want to increase the cutting performance I would reprofile the edge angle down to around 15-17dps.
 
Jason B. said:
High alloy steels, typically those with 4% or more vanadium I like to sharpen on a DMT Coarse then strop with 1 micron diamond. This combo of toothy plus polished provides some of the best edge performance on high alloy steels.

Mid grade alloy steels like ELMAX, A2, Hap40, etc. receive a little finer edge 2000 grit Shapton is usually used here and is my common finishing place for 90% of my Sharpening.

Very hard steels, usually with lower alloy content are those that I put an even finer edge on. Usually, it's task specific at this point and the edge needs to be smooth and extremely sharp. Straight razors, speciality Japanese Kitchen knives, wood chisels, you get the idea.
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Nice and thanks. This was the type of answer I was looking for. I used to chase extreme mirror polishes, but after awhile wondered if they're useless for actual use, primarily EDC. I've watched some videos of people who professionally sharpen like for example TheApostleP, and he polishes everything to the extreme I presume primarily for aesthetics but wonder if it's what's best for some steels like S90V and S110V, even his S35VN CRKs. Yeah they'll be really sharp and slice paper and hair, but could they perform better not so polished?

Skimo said:
Grit is for jobs, not for steel. Some steels hold a fine or toothy edge better. 400-600 grit is great for most EDC tasks. Lower grit is better for most fiberous materials. Highly polished for push cutting. What sort of super abusive tasks require 22 DPS on your Hinderer, or is it for aesthetics?
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I went with 22 because of the thick grind and dislike huge bevels except on my Spydies for some reason and it's slightly more acute than the factory edge. I've seen a Hinderer sharpened at 15-17 before and IMO it looked bad. On my pricier knives, I tend to go with less steel removal at first before warming up to taking off more. I know, I know it'd perform better at 20 or below, but it's not exactly a dull brick at 22. Would still slice through boxes, but of course not like a Delica. For some reason I don't mind at all putting my knives through the wringer and scratching and beating them up through honest use, but I hate sharpening screw-ups which I've done (and learned from) in the past.
 
fsatsil said:
I wouldn't waste your time putting a polished edge on your XM-18 unless it's purely for looks. If you want to increase the cutting performance I would reprofile the edge angle down to around 15-17dps.
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I could see myself going to 20 for right now in the near future for sure. Just give me some time...had the knife for a year and a half before ever touching a stone to it lol. I always mean to sharpen or reprofile my knives, but other stuff always gets in the way.

Already going off-topic here but this thread has already convinced me to thin out some of my knives more. I'd been running a couple Sebenzas at 20 (very sharp, mind you) and been thinking about taking them to 18. Was going to sharpen my new SnG at 20 (my old one was 20) and think I'll do 18 and probably gonna try 20 on my XM.
 
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The problem you will eventually encounter, as you may know, is that sharpening at angles of 20 dps and above will eventually lead to edge thickening. As you continue to sharpen at that obtuse angle, you move up into thicker and thicker steel, and the knife can lose cutting ability due to resistance, no matter how crisp your edge is. Angles around 15 dps and lower usually don't have this problem.

As has been mentioned, highly polished edges are usually only necessary for push-cutting tasks, such as wood carving and shaving. In some cases, a highly polished edge, even when done very well, will simply slide right off of certain materials, such as heavy nylon rope, without hardly even nicking them. There's a reason why Airborne jump masters are issued fully serrated blades instead of straight razors. [emoji6]
 
Yep one of the reasons I went away from polished edges awhile ago. Some of the things I'd cut, it's like the edge would slip right off. My favorite edge is the Spyderco factory edge. I know it's done on a belt probably, but somehow it's so crisp that it bites so well yet will push cut with ease. I've tried to recreate the feel of it the past few times I've sharpened.
 
I used to fuss over my edges. I finally realized that on my approximate 60 Rockwell VG-10 Spyderco, a course 30 degree edge, stropped, served me best, maintained easily on the SharpMaker (which is a very good tool for maintenance). Going down to extra fine stones just wore out my arm, bought me nothing in cutting, and actually seemed to dull more easily.

So I am a pretty big fan of a relatively coarsely ground edge then polished. I do prefer 30 degrees and only use 40 degrees on big "tough use" knives. Even there...My ESEE-6 is at 30. My Becker-7 is at 40. I am happy with both where they are.
 
I was just talking to a very knowledgeable man on fb about toothy vs polished on s30&s110v.

Contrary to what's normally said, he told me these steels especially s30v work best with a highly refined edge. He said by doing this it eliminates the typical micro chipping issue found with s30v. I gotta admit I always left mine toothy as it's usually recommended, but I recently polished one and since haven't experienced the same micro chipping I had before doing the same tasks.
 
Bobby3326 said:
I was just talking to a very knowledgeable man on fb about toothy vs polished on s30&s110v.

Contrary to what's normally said, he told me these steels especially s30v work best with a highly refined edge. He said by doing this it eliminates the typical micro chipping issue found with s30v. I gotta admit I always left mine toothy as it's usually recommended, but I recently polished one and since haven't experienced the same micro chipping I had before doing the same tasks.
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Eliminates micro chipping? total BS

The typical micro chipping issue with S30V is a Heat Treatment issue or an edge that's too thin. HT issues have mostly cleared up since its release so that's not too much of a worry these days.
 
Jason B. said:
Eliminates micro chipping? total BS

The typical micro chipping issue with S30V is a Heat Treatment issue or an edge that's too thin. HT issues have mostly cleared up since its release so that's not too much of a worry these days.
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I didn't mean completely eliminate it, but goes along way in preventing it. They told me s30v needs a highly refined edge to see its peak performance. This came from a guy that knows his stuff.
 
uofaengr said:
My favorite edge is the Spyderco factory edge. I know it's done on a belt probably, but somehow it's so crisp that it bites so well yet will push cut with ease. I've tried to recreate the feel of it the past few times I've sharpened.
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My guess is that Spyderco uses somewhere between a 320 and 400 grit belt to grind the cutting bevel. Then they polish the burr off with a buffer. I normally see an ultra thin shiny line at the edge of the edge; a microbevel that's quite shiny. That probably comes from the buffer; at least that's what I've been told here.

So maybe sharpen on a stone of approximately that grit and then deburr, at an elevated angle, on the finest stone you've got. It's worth a try. It's also sort of what John Jurranich teaches in his book; more or less.

Brian.
 
Bobby3326 said:
I didn't mean completely eliminate it, but goes along way in preventing it. They told me s30v needs a highly refined edge to see its peak performance. This came from a guy that knows his stuff.
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Actually is does not.

He might know his stuff but it is very obvious there is a bias to high refinement.
 
With respect to a knife maker who's obviously a craftsman...

Knife Maker does not equal knife sharpener. Or more precisely a very good knife maker, might not be as knowledgeable about knife sharpening, edge retention, stones, and finishes as a dedicated knife sharpener. I don't know anything about Mike. But I know about Jason and he's world class.

Name me a knife maker that owns half the stones that Jason does, owns a goniometer, a USB microscope, and has participated in CATRA testing. Jason isn't the last word, but he's certainly highly qualified. At one time Jason was sharpening over 100 blades per day, 5 days a week, for months at a time.

Again, no insult to Mike, who I don't know anything about. You just might want to listen to Jason.

Brian.
 
Do a little research on why steel chips and all of the sudden you will realize why polishing the edge would have ZERO to do with preventing chipping.

I mean no disrespect to Mike Stewart, man makes a great knife, but like Brian said, we all have our skill set.
 
Idk like I said I was just going off what I was told..here's what he about it

S30V is unique in it's chipping and Micro Chipping Issues. that is why crucible developed S35VN to replace it. The S30V needs to have a very highly refined edge to overcome those issues. Most people - that are not real knife enthusiasts and are very skilled at sharpening really cannot put the level of edge necessary to not have those Issues. Your experience with S30V is actually not uncommon at all.

The higher level of polish on the edge of S30V - the less of a problem with chipping you will have.

When you leave S30v toothy you are adding to it's issues. the only way it does not micro chip is when it is highly refined - it is part of the inherent problem with a steel with that much Carbon - Chromium and Vanadium. The S35VN does not have that issue because it has a little less of all three of these and it has the added Niobium to help make it's crystalline structure more uniform. If S30V was a great Steel Crucible would never have spent the time and money to introduce S35VN. I have made exactly 300 knives out of S30v and I will never make another one. In My Opinion - For whatever that is worth - The S35VN is head and Shoulders Above it in every aspect.
 
Yep, a bunch of flapping in the wind right there...
 
I prefer toothy on pretty much any steel I will be using, however, if I had a specific purpose in mind that I would need push cutting use (like on my straight razors), I would polish it.

uofaengr said:
I went with 22 because of the thick grind and dislike huge bevels except on my Spydies for some reason and it's slightly more acute than the factory edge. I've seen a Hinderer sharpened at 15-17 before and IMO it looked bad. On my pricier knives, I tend to go with less steel removal at first before warming up to taking off more. I know, I know it'd perform better at 20 or below, but it's not exactly a dull brick at 22. Would still slice through boxes, but of course not like a Delica. For some reason I don't mind at all putting my knives through the wringer and scratching and beating them up through honest use, but I hate sharpening screw-ups which I've done (and learned from) in the past.
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You don't have to have a huge bevel when you lower your edge angle... just regrind that sucker! I set the edge, post regrind, on this one at 15 dps (can't remember how thick, 10-15 thou).

15%2B-%2B1

15%2B-%2B2
 
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