Choppers: Why? Educate me!

[stabman]

It is just plain fun. If we were running around 100 years ago, we would have an entirely different set of priorities.

n2s

If we were running around 100 years ago, we'd most likely be dead right now.

I'll happily opt for still being alive to enjoy the better steel, as well as the greater numbers of girls wearing skimpier clothes.

 

[stabman]

But then again, when it comes to the 'net, there appears to be a world of diference between the skills that outdoorsmen used to have, compared to those who post on the 'net today.

Ah, but how can we be sure when there is no video evidence that they had any skill at all?

 

[Hammer67]

Ah, but how can we be sure when there is no video evidence that they had any skill at all?

I wonder if the ancient Egyptians had similar debates?

"Anyone can make themselves sound good on a clay tablet."

"Pictographs, or you're full of #$@*!!

 

[sodak]

Ah, but how can we be sure when there is no video evidence that they had any skill at all?

I wonder if the ancient Egyptians had similar debates?

"Anyone can make themselves sound good on a clay tablet."

"Pictographs, or you're full of #$@*!!

You guys crack me up!

Pinnah,

I'll give you credit, most of the time when this kind of thread is started, it's usually a thinly veiled attempt to bash those who like large knives. You aren't doing that, which is great, so I'll give you my answer.

I find that in general wood processing, in order of descending speed, is:

1. large saw
2. large axe
3. khukuri
4. hatchet or large bowie knife

Of course, it depends on what you are doing. I find khukuris much better than saws for limbing, but saws better for bucking. If I'm truck camping, I might bring them all. If I'm backpacking, I don't bring any of them - a small folding saw and a SAK are all I need.

Other than having fun and/or a bonfire, I've never needed to cut wood thicker than my wrist. My SAK can do that. The rest is for fun. I'm not building log cabins or anything else like that. Someday I'd like to see Dick Proenneke's cabin though....

As always, use what you like, YMMV.

 

[crafty]

I like the discussion here.
Always used a 4 inch blade, an axe, hatchet and folding saw. Recently I decided that I want to experiment with larger knives for bushcraft tasks. Just curious to try. Good to read the ideas here.

 

[crossada]

Ah, but how can we be sure when there is no video evidence that they had any skill at all?

You win my vote for best post of the year award That's just funny!

 

[neeman]

Neeman you are right I would only use long knives for chopping and battoning

I fixed it for you.............

 

[Raymond1000]

G'day pinnah



Spend long enough on the internet and you'll soon realise that those who don't have enough experience outdoors to know how to safely use a hatchet or axe, will recommed a knife instead.

After all, look back in time when the Nth American pre-eminent Woodsman's who appeared to "walk the walk" (aka Kephart & Nessmuk ) recommended either a hatchet or axe.

But then again, when it comes to the 'net, there appears to be a world of diference between the skills that outdoorsmen used to have, compared to those who post on the 'net today.

Kephart and Nessmuk as preeminent nineteenth century woodsmen? Really?

I think of men like Daniel Boone and Simon Kenton. I think of Jim Bridger and Hugh Glass.

Compared to hosts of American frontiersmen, Kephart and Nessmuk were drugstore cowboys. Nothing against them. They knew the woods. Nice enough guys. Interesting writers. But let’s not get carried away.

 

[Bigfattyt]

G'day pinnah



Spend long enough on the internet and you'll soon realise that those who don't have enough experience outdoors to know how to safely use a hatchet or axe, will recommed a knife instead.

After all, look back in time when the Nth American pre-eminent Woodsman's who appeared to "walk the walk" (aka Kephart & Nessmuk ) recommended either a hatchet or axe.

But then again, when it comes to the 'net, there appears to be a world of diference between the skills that outdoorsmen used to have, compared to those who post on the 'net today.

What about those of us who grew up cutting down massive trees (4- 5 foot diameter often). Heating our home with fire wood, and splitting wood for the home stove all our lives? I've been using an Ax, maul and wedges for 25 years or so I guess.

My father was a logger for a time, and we learned to split wood at a young age. We would buy a wood permit and go cut wood most years up on the mountain.

I still take a large knife over axes and hatches most times.

For several reasons. The large knife is lighter. it gives me the ability to do more with one tool. Most places I camp, you don't go around cutting trees down. I may need a few poles now and then, but try to keep it to already dead wood.

I have never, ever, while camping, chopped a large, medium, or small tree down. (though one specific area we camp on over night canoe trips, we lop large branches off of noxious "weed" trees that are invasive. Russian Olives are nasty, non native trees that we are allowed, even encouraged to trim and burn). We do so with glee. I don't bring a chain saw on these canoe trips, because I don't want to risk loosing a chain saw. Plus, they are heavy. I also don't bring axes on these canoe trips.

We usually have a folding saw, a large knife, and occasionally a hatchet or hawk.

For cutting down branches, often at higher than waist level, I prefer either my machete, or for the thicker stuff, a long heavier knife.

If I have to hike, or pack my own gear, I don't bring axes. Its that simple for me. I don't plan, in any circumstance, to have to fell trees to survive, or to built a cabin with my large knife.

I have helped to built a large cabin, and we certainly did not use hand tools to cut anything. Chain saws, large auger/drills and cranes were the order of the day. Though, I do have to say, we did strip the bark with hand tools (bigger draw knives). That was before I was big enough to use the chain saws.



I'm not a hard core survivalist. I have been camping my entire life. I am an Eagle Scout, and I have been a scout leader for near a decade.


I still use the mauls, and wedges, and axes to split wood for my father and mother, but they don't burn in the wood stove as often as they used to. The house is much better insulated than it was when we were growing up (that happens when one son does insulation, and all windows get replaced with high energy efficiency triple pane windows). What used to be an on going chore is now only a pleasant distraction when I go over (though he has enough split to likely last a few more years).

 

[BOSS1]

Well, I think one would have to define 'chopper' at least a little bit...there's lots of good knives over a 4-5" that aren't necessarily choppers...

I think it probably boils down to people wanting one 'do everything' knife, and feel that a large knife can do most anything a small knife can, but not vice versa, which is true to a degree. While a 8-10+ 'chopper' might not excel at everything, it could fill a number of roles...

That being said, I am a big believer in using the right tool for the job, especially when calories count, but at the same time, I don't want to pack everything from SAK to a weedwacker to a splitting maul to a Stihl chainsaw every time I head into the woods. As such, if I were pressed to take but a SINGLE blade into the woods for an extended period of time, it would be a heavy duty fixed blade in the 8 inch range. The Busse NMSFNO is tops in my books at this point in life.

While probabaly not a true 'choppers,' nor small whittling or bushcraft knives, IMHO, it might well be the most versatile size range for most folks.

On the other hand, I seldom go into the woods with a single blade unless its just a very little hike.

BOSS

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day WW

I think the skills are the same but what draws attention is perhaps different. For example this thread is really about processing wood? Correct? Anyone think otherwise? If I started a thread saying someone could use two trees for leverage to easily break up wood even oak and maple odds are the silence would be deafening. Maybe one response? At best?



But it works. Betting this method was used back when being trampled by a woolly rhino was a danger.



But start a thread asking if a knife or axe is better to process that same wood it would go to at least 20 pages with a potential thread closer by a mod if the debate became too heated. That said odds are people still break sticks using leverage, even those who post on the internet.

LOL

I know what you mean.

I posted these at least 5 years ago on youtube.

[video=youtube;XQEgOwpDXhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQEgOwpDXhI[/video]

[video=youtube;928mnpV5M6E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=928mnpV5M6E[/video]

And shared them on a number of internet forums, with not much in the way of comment from the regulars.

But show a knife being used to batton wood like this one back in 2011....

[video=youtube;aZLM9Etic8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZLM9Etic8c[/video] ...

....and you could guarantee that unless it was a brand that the 'net fan boys on that particular forum favoured, you could also expect little in the way of response.

But take heart, posts that involved TV show's & personalities, have always been more popular with more responses that the posts that show people actually do.

Mick

 

[jdk1]

Other than a few very limited examples, I don't think we have much of a clue what people did day to day in the past. Jim Bowie? He used his big knife to fight on a MS. delta. That's documented, but if he used it to chop firewood it likely wouldn't have made it into the history books. It's always popular to claim others have lesser skills and quote this or that "expert" as the way it was done. I can't say for sure. The REAL woodsmen probably didn't write books or carve camp furniture. Did North American mountain men pack axes? I'm sure they did as making a cabin of sorts was likely a need, as well as heavy firewood processing. Did they use big knives for something? I don't know. Someone (I wish I could find the thread) posted a page from an old 1920's (?) era lumberjack guide and mentioned using a large knife in wood processing. Then there's the froe for batonning. There's also countless other knifes used the world over for centuries, the khukuri being a prime example. Brit reports from the early 19th century speak of it being mainly a woods tool. People probably have used all sorts of tools for mundane tasks we'll never know about because they were mundane

 

[B34NS]

Dbl tap

 

[B34NS]

I fixed it for you.............

I think it's easy for others to misinterpret what I'm getting at. Easy for you to get confused.

If hacking through nature is how you connect to it, then by all means, use what gets you outdoors and have fun.

If you like using a big knife for everything, knock yourself out. There's more than road to get to Rome, some easier some rougher. No right or wrong way, but yea, if you're in my camp and your swinging a huge blade around, you're more a liability than anything else in my eyes. I tend to gauge someone's real capabilities based on how small their blade is. Only in my experience it usually means they have much more confidence in edge control and leverage. This is largely in part to being a classically trained chef, we all have large knives, they have their utility, but small knives can handle the rest.

In the woods, unless you're playing big kid Kephart, just go around the brambles rather than through them. Why rough it, when ya can smooth it?

Speaking of Kephart "An indian runner would strip down to his G string and moccasins, roll up in his small blanket a pouch of rockahominy, and, armed only with bows and arrows, he would perform journeys that no mammal, but a wolf could equal" "But they were woodsmen, every inch of them" So enough of this "Real Woodsmen" BS already. He continues "Ideal outfitting to have what we want, when we want it, and not be bothered by anything else." Elaborating on a better point which I'm trying to make here "Now it is not needful nor advisable for a camper of our time to suffer hardships from stinting his supplies". Why limit yourself unnecessarily? Just a good excuse to buy more knives IMHO.

Here's some historical evidence dating back 5,500 years of large knife use, to slice protein, not baton wood. It's no youtube vid - sorry stabman, the time machine was booked):

 

[22-rimfire]

Southern Cross; Those first two videos are just no brainers. I suspect these are some of the earliest lessons that a father teaches his son when processing firewood. If you are an adult in the woods, I would assume you know how to break down dead material for a fire without the use of a cutting tool. If not, you probably shouldn't be out there by yourself. This is basically why I see little need to baton anything unless I'm just playing around.

I hesitated to even watch them as I sort of knew what to expect. But I guess people are making videos about everything these days and some are quite useful.

 

[Raymond1000]

Other than a few very limited examples, I don't think we have much of a clue what people did day to day in the past. Jim Bowie? He used his big knife to fight on a MS. delta. That's documented, but if he used it to chop firewood it likely wouldn't have made it into the history books. It's always popular to claim others have lesser skills and quote this or that "expert" as the way it was done. I can't say for sure. The REAL woodsmen probably didn't write books or carve camp furniture. Did North American mountain men pack axes? I'm sure they did as making a cabin of sorts was likely a need, as well as heavy firewood processing. Did they use big knives for something? I don't know. Someone (I wish I could find the thread) posted a page from an old 1920's (?) era lumberjack guide and mentioned using a large knife in wood processing. Then there's the froe for batonning. There's also countless other knifes used the world over for centuries, the khukuri being a prime example. Brit reports from the early 19th century speak of it being mainly a woods tool. People probably have used all sorts of tools for mundane tasks we'll never know about because they were mundane

The lumberjack guide? You may be thinking of the 1945 Woodsmanship, by Bernard R. Mason. http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/woodsmanship.pdf Mason says:
THE CAMPER’S PREFERENCE IN BRUSH CUTTING IS THE TRAIL KNIFE—AN OVERSIZED HUNTING KNIFE WITH A 10 INCH BLADE, CARRIED AT A SHEATH ON THE BELT. THIS IS REALLY A COMBINATION OF KNIFE AND HAND-AX, CAPABLE OF CUTTING BRUSH, FELLING SAPLINGS UP TO SEVERAL INCHES IN DIAMETER, AND SPLITTING SMALL FIREWOOD.

Best evidence is, the knife Jim used at the Sandbar Fight was a loan from his brother Resin. Who later wrote—in the Planters Advocate: August 24, 1838— THE FIRST BOWIE KNIFE WAS MADE BY MYSELF IN THE PARISH OF AVOYELLES, IN THIS STATE (LOUISIANA), AS A HUNTING KNIFE, FOR WHICH PURPOSE, EXCLUSIVELY, IT WAS USED FOR MANY YEARS……THE LENGTH OF THE BLADE WAS NINE AND ONE-QUARTERS INCHES, ITS WIDTH ONE AND ONE-HALF INCHES, SINGLE EDGED AND NOT CURVED.

In this context hunting knife doesn’t mean skinning knife. Not at nine inches. It meant a large bladed wilderness tool. As useful for processing wood as for butchering game.

Here’s a big “butcher knife” in use by some nobody named Crocket. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5816/

I COULD SEE THE LUMP, BUT NOT PLAIN ENOUGH TO SHOOT WITH ANY CERTAINTY, AS THERE WAS NO MOONLIGHT; AND SO I SET IN TO HUNTING FOR SOME DRY BRUSH TO MAKE ME A LIGHT; BUT I COULD FIND NONE, THOUGH I COULD FIND THAT THE GROUND WAS TORN MIGHTILY TO PIECES BY THE CRACKS.

AT LAST I THOUGHT I COULD SHOOT BY GUESS, AND KILL HIM; SO I POINTED AS NEAR THE LUMP AS I COULD, AND FIRED AWAY. BUT THE BEAR DIDN’T COME, HE ONLY CLOMB UP HIGHER, AND GOT OUT ON A LIMB, WHICH HELPED ME TO SEE HIM BETTER. I NOW LOADED UP AGAIN AND FIRED, BUT THIS TIME HE DIDN’T MOVE AT ALL. I COMMENCED LOADING FOR A THIRD FIRE, BUT THE FIRST THING I KNOWED, THE BEAR WAS DOWN AMONG MY DOGS, AND THEY WERE FIGHTING ALL AROUND ME. I HAD MY BIG BUTCHER IN MY BELT, AND I HAD A PAIR OF DRESSED BUCKSKIN BREECHES ON. SO I TOOK OUT MY KNIFE, AND STOOD, DETERMINED, IF HE SHOULD GET HOLD OF ME, TO DEFEND MYSELF IN THE BEST WAY I COULD. I STOOD THERE FOR SOME TIME, AND COULD NOW AND THEN SEE A WHITE DOG I HAD, BUT THE REST OF THEM, AND THE BEAR, WHICH WERE DARK COLOURED, I COULDN’T SEE AT ALL, IT WAS SO MISERABLE DARK. THEY STILL FOUGHT AROUND ME, AND SOMETIMES WITHIN THREE FEET OF ME; BUT, AT LAST, THE BEAR GOT DOWN INTO ONE OF THE CRACKS, THAT THE EARTHQUAKES HAD MADE IN THE GROUND, ABOUT FOUR FEET DEEP, AND I COULD TELL THE BITING END OF HIM BY THE HOLLERING OF MY DOGS. SO I TOOK MY GUN AND PUSHED THE MUZZLE OF IT ABOUT, TILL I THOUGHT I HAD IT AGAINST THE MAIN PART OF HIS BODY, AND FIRED; BUT IT HAPPENED TO BE ONLY THE FLESHY PART OF HIS FORELEG. WITH THIS, HE JUMPED OUT OF THE CRACK, AND HE AND THE DOGS HAD ANOTHER HARD FIGHT AROUND ME, AS BEFORE. AT LAST, HOWEVER, THEY FORCED HIM BACK INTO THE CRACK AGAIN, AS HE WAS WHEN I HAD SHOT.

I HAD LAID DOWN MY GUN IN THE DARK, AND I NOW BEGAN TO HUNT FOR IT; AND, WHILE HUNTING, I GOT HOLD OF A POLE, AND I CONCLUDED I WOULD PUNCH HIM AWHILE WITH THAT. I DID SO, AND WHEN I WOULD PUNCH HIM, THE DOGS WOULD JUMP IN ON HIM, WHEN HE WOULD BITE THEM BADLY, AND THEY WOULD JUMP OUT AGAIN. I CONCLUDED, AS HE WOULD TAKE PUNCHING SO PATIENTLY, IT MIGHT BE THAT HE WOULD LIE STILL ENOUGH FOR ME TO GET DOWN IN THE CRACK, AND FEEL SLOWLY ALONG TILL I COULD FIND THE RIGHT PLACE TO GIVE HIM A DIG WITH MY BUTCHER. SO I GOT DOWN, AND MY DOGS GOT IN BEFORE HIM AND KEPT HIS HEAD TOWARDS THEM, TILL I GOT ALONG EASILY UP TO HIM; AND PLACING MY HAND ON HIS RUMP, FELT FOR HIS SHOULDER, JUST BEHIND WHICH I INTENDED TO STICK HIM. I MADE A LOUNGE WITH MY LONG KNIFE, AND FORTUNATELY STOCK HIM RIGHT THROUGH THE HEART; AT WHICH HE JUST SANK DOWN, AND I CRAWLED OUT IN A HURRY. IN A LITTLE TIME MY DOGS ALL COME OUT TOO, AND SEEMED SATISFIED, WHICH WAS THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAD OF TELLING ME THAT THEY HAD FINISHED HIM.

 

[B34NS]

See what happens when you gather firewood at night...

Every time I hear a bear fight story I think of this:

 

[jdk1]

Raymond1000, that very well could've been what I was referencing. I could of sworn it was a manual having to do with lumberjack work, but I'm getting old and could've made that part up during some south Texas midsummer nights dream involving cooler temps and maple syrup Either way, it's what I was getting at. Big knife use in the outdoors isn't new, just as batonning isn't. Folks repeatedly claim this or that is a new internet based fad to add credibility to their opinions. Your reference points out that the handiness of a large knife wasn't lost on our fathers, or great grandfathers. Bear fighting being just one such use That being said, I don't recall seeing my grandfather with any knife bigger than an Oldtimer stockman type jack knife. So I can see why some believe old timers didn't use big knives. Pawpaw would also argue all day that there was no rifle other than a 30-30 worth owning, so I learned early on even experienced opinions varied greatly.

 

[stabman]

You win my vote for best post of the year award That's just funny!

Thanks.

Here's some historical evidence dating back 5,500 years of large knife use, to slice protein, not baton wood. It's no youtube vid - sorry stabman, the time machine was booked):

You should have borrowed my time-traveling knife:

See what happens when you gather firewood at night...

Every time I hear a bear fight story I think of this:

That's why I always EDC my set of tactical teeth.

 

[stabman]

I learned early on even experienced opinions varied greatly.

Yep.

One of my uncles trained with a bunch of noted survival experts up here, and swears by the utility of Opinels and Moras.

When I showed him the sword I made to replace a machete and a small axe for woods usage, he had to admit that it would do so just fine.
He was skeptical when I first told him about it, but once he held it and felt the motion and ergonomics, his experience with other tools told him that it would definitely work out just fine.

He'll still be sticking with a folding or collapsible saw and a Opinel, and I respect that choice too; each approach has its own merits.