Chopping ability of the Cold Steel Shovel

[ERdept]

Good review Cliff. I have mine in my car all the time and the edges are sharpened. I carry this in the car instead of a knife as it is easier to justify than the knife as well.

My primary use is in case attacked while driving in a SHTF situation (rioting, carjacking, etc.), I could use it Spetznatz style. I'm sure it'll do a great job on a human limb vs a tree limb.

Otherwise, it just sits there.

cliff

 

[Pahtoocara]

I use an original design Spetsnaz shovel. I know it is lighter than the CS. Do you have any experience with the originals Mr. Stamp? I would like to know how it would fair against the CS.

Well, here it is folks, the original:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i284/Pahtoocara/SpetsnazShovelOriginal-1.jpg

Several years ago, you could find these everywhere. I bought 7 or 8 (?) and spruced them up. I gave some away to friends. I really like my shovel and still carry one in my vehicle all the time. I've used it to chop ice (winter time), move burning embers and wood, digging, and generally playing around with it.

I kept 3 of the shovels for myself.

#1 - This one I used for throwing. The handle broke after a few throws. Was getting around to making a durable handle. Have the materials, just never did it.

#2 - The "ugly" one, is pictured above. That one was in the worst shape of all the Spetsnaz shovels I bought. It's rusty and missing chunks of the handle. I kept it "as is" just for the heck of it.

#3 - The last one I still have is my EDCC (everyday car carry).

I've handled the CS shovel. I immediately liked my Spetsnaz better. Maybe its the history behind it, I don't know. I was impressed with the thickness of the CS. But, this doesn't necessarily mean it's better! It's definitely heavier, this might be a negative to some people (light backpackers, campers, women, girly men, etc).

Anyway, if there is interest, I might be able to scare up a CS shovel. It may not be as timely (or scientific) as Cliff's review, but I might be able to pit Commie Pinko Steel v. CS Steel.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I was impressed with the thickness of the CS. But, this doesn't necessarily mean it's better!

It is hard to argue for really heavy stock in a shovel as they are typically strong due to the width, the only reason you would want it here is for the weight for impacts on a swing.

... but I might be able to pit Commie Pinko Steel v. CS Steel.

I would be interested in a comparison.

What angle do you use when reprofiling the hatchet?

The current edge is about an inch wide, it was brought back to basically almost exactly match the primary profile angle. The last 0.050" of the edge increases slightly and if you put a ruler along the primary grind you can see the curvature increase at this point. It goes up to about 10/11 degrees per side and then in the last 0.030" the angle increases to 12/13 degrees per side. I add a very light microbevel of about 25 degrees per side as a burr removal / durability step. This only increases the angle on a strip of metal about 0.1 mm wide, you can't see it.

Do you happen to have a close up of the hatchet head available? Are you putting on a convex edge with a belt sander, or using another method?

I have to update the review to discuss the new profile so I'll take a few then. I maintain the convex edge freehand with benchstones. I actually ground it with a dremel. I didn't aim for those specific angles, I was just grinding it as shallow as I could go and stopped at that point to check the performance. It cuts very well there, is fluid and doesn't take any deformation on the hardest woods I have tried. The edge retention is lower than the Bruks though, it will lose the ability to do fine work faster, but you are still looking at hundreds of chops before you start to see the ability to slice fine paper degrade significantly.

Nice to see you are still around Fred.

As an aside, will the shovel hold up to regular digging without breaking chunks out of the reprofiled edge?

That's the critical question as you can raise the cutting performance to extreme levels by adjusting the edge but it stops being a shovel at some point and becomes basically a really wide smatchet. So the question is what is the lowest angle which leaves it durable enough so that you don't need extensive filing after digging. I retuned the edge with a file and stone it was 16/17 consistently along both edges. I first checked the durability on the worse wood I could find :

That dead stuff is rock hard, when you chop into it the shovel makes a loud ring. I smashed off the limbs chopping at full force, this is really abusive cutting for an optimized wood cutting blade but even though this shovel is regound heavily the edges are still 0.050" thick and far more obtuse than I run wood cutters. It had no problems removing the limbs and took them all off in one swing each. I then bucked up a dozen sections :

The performance was *much* better, it was no longer outclassed by the Ratweiler. The higher penetration also reduced feedback and it was much more comfortable in hand. After the cutting it had no significant difference in sharpness and could still slice paper readily. I'll do some digging tomorrow comparing the times against the Ratweiler on some types of ground and check edge durability. I'll also resharpen to proper push cutting sharpness to allow a sensible edge retention comparison on woods as I am curious how much wood work you can do with it before you can't cut fine vegetation for example.

I carry this in the car instead of a knife as it is easier to justify than the knife as well.

There is that, as of now there are few places where shovels are illegal, I certainly would not want to take a heavy impact from it.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A top down shot of the Fiskars head after modification :

note the primary grind goes pretty much straight to the edge. A shot from the side :

The edge bevel is massively wider than the origional one as noted to blend it back into the primary, however the main influence on the cutting ability was the removal of the secondary edge bevel and the reshaping of the last 1/8" of the edge bevel.

As a side note on wood working, I did find an area where the shovel did outperform both axes and blades. If you chop it into a tree leading with the secondary point or primary, you can lead on its sideways and pry off large sections of dead wood. It basically combines the front penetration of the axe with the prying ability of the knife :

I did some digging with the reduced edge profile, I had in fact reduced it further to around 28/30 degrees included. There was no problem digging a hole in rocky soil with no visible edge damage. The glances off of rocks will blunt the edge significantly, but the damage is focused on the leading edge and not the sides :

I have done some felling (250 chops on small sapling) and limbing out a couple of dozen small sticks and the edge will still readily slice photocopy paper, so while it isn't on par with a decent high end knife, it isn't like you cut a few pieces of wood and can't do any fine cutting either. As noted though it takes a lot of metal removal do get the shovel to this stage, this is now close to have the angle of the origional profile.

It handles now similar to a wide bladed machete/axe, the only problem remaining is that since the edge is curved it tends to want to rotate in the cuts so you have to adjust your entry angle to compensate. It does tend to make me want to get a decent small double bit axe now, until I have to split some kindling anyway which quickly reminds me why I never bought one.

-Cliff

 

[Shann]

Cliff: I didn't see how you sharpened the shovel, maybe I missed it. I assume that you used a file and them some stone work? Is there any tips on sharpening that shape? I am a neophyte and while I can sharpen a straight blade pretty well now, thanks to many attempts and reading you and others on particularly convexing blades, the types with curves, recurves, etc and a shovel head shape throw me. I have an old army folding shovel that could use some work, but when I tried to sharpen it, I couldn't figure out the most effective way to do it.

Thanks.

 

[dante]

How is the handle holding up after chopping?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I regound it on a belt sander to the moe acute edge I could grind, the curvature prevented anything more acute. I maintain it with a file and waterstones. You do do the reshaping with a file+vice in about 15 minutes of hard work.

The handle is fine, it is designed to handle throwing impacts, so it ignores chopping. It was fractured early on with throwing which is why it is cord wrapped in the throat, there is epoxy under the cord.

-Cliff

 

[beefangusbeef]

Nice, wasn't this shovel meant to be used as a last ditch self defense tool? I thought that was the design idea. Maybe you should try and chop up some game or chicken with it. See if you can get a nice cut.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Settling interpersonal conflicts in a sudden and abrupt manner was one of the origional design goals. Based on comparison work I have done on other blades in regards to ease of chopping through animal flesh and bone compared to a solid piece of wood and how readily this reprofiled blade goes through wood - you would not be happy to be hit by it in the current configuration.

-Cliff

 

[Kevin the grey]

Lets face it getting hit by even a small garden spade(sharpened or not) is going to ruin most peoples day . I think if I could find a !/3 size garden spade that is ergonomically designed for swinging it might work . What do you think ?

If any of you remember "the Black Donelly,s"? I seem to remember one of them had their head cut off by a sharpened garden spade .

 

[kel_aa]

Settling interpersonal conflicts

What, you workplace doesn't have mediation councillors? Does it have a tendency to twist in your hand when chop with it?

What sort of design in generally do axes have to prevent this? Is this why in general the heads are drawn back from the grip area?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Lets face it getting hit by even a small garden spade(sharpened or not) is going to ruin most peoples day .

Yes, people are fairly fragile. While many knives are massively overhyped for their "de-animation" abilities, fairly blunt objects go through people with little effort. Even the worse cutting knife I have ever handled would not be something that you could ignore if used on an offensive manner against you. Even if the shovel was blunted the massive impact energy would be very difficult to deal with irregardless of the impact point, just imagine taking a heavy hit from the claws of a large framing hammer. These are usually not sharp but anyone who has used them in demo work would have an appreciation of the massive penetration power and raw impact they can deliver.

What, you workplace doesn't have mediation councillors?

Yeah, we give them all shovels, it speeds up the process.

Does it have a tendency to twist in your hand when chop with it?

Yes, pretty severely because the head is curved so as it goes into thick wood it will try to turn either up or down depending on which side you face into the wood. You can compensate this by adjusting the entry angle and rotating the wrist during the impact to compensate for the turning. You won't notice this with the initial bevels because the chopping penetration will be so low.

What sort of design in generally do axes have to prevent this?

A symmetric head won't tend to twist in the cut, there is a light asymmetry in the forces applied because the wood is compressed against one side and just pops off on the other, but this is generally small compared to the direct force against the blade. Axe handles are also flat in cross section and thus very difficult to turn in hand, they are also really wide if you look at the bit to poll distance which makes them very difficult to turn. If you compare this to something like the Project I for example from Reeves which has a round handle and very narrow blade design, you note that the knife is much more likely to turn and come out of a cut. This is generally only an issue when the cut angle is not suited to the wood or the wood is bad, knots break or wood rot clears.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

They are also really wide if you look at the bit to poll distance which makes them very difficult to turn. If you compare this to something like the Project I for example from Reeves which has a round handle and very narrow blade design, you note that the knife is much more likely to turn and come out of a cut.

I don't see where you arrive at that conclusion concerning bit to poll distance and the Project 1.

This is the way I see it: If the edge is in line with center of mass and the grip (image a lightsaber, or whacking something with a small diameter rod), then there is no tendency to turn at all (although to be honest I haven't used a lightsaber). If the edge is in front of the line of created by the center of mass and the grip (khukuri), then an improper swing or sideway forces created in the material will cause it to turn the most since the mass will add to the torque. If the edge is behind the line of created by the center of mass and the grip (scimatar), then the mass of the blade will counter the twisting torque. My analogy would be the ship with the centre of mass below the centre of bouyancy will be the most stable, while that with the centre of mass above the centre of bouyancy will be least stable.

 

[the possum]

A symmetric head won't tend to twist in the cut, there is a light asymmetry in the forces applied because the wood is compressed against one side and just pops off on the other, but this is generally small compared to the direct force against the blade.

Shingle splitting axes are designed to compensate for this (flat on one side, chisel ground on the other) since the different compression forces on each side will be much more pronounced when just splitting thin sections off a log.

[Axes] are also really wide if you look at the bit to poll distance which makes them very difficult to turn.

If the edge is in line with center of mass and the grip (image a lightsaber, or whacking something with a small diameter rod), then there is no tendency to turn at all (although to be honest I haven't used a lightsaber).

One of these days I'm gonna have to send my lightsaber for a passaround. Any interest?

Cliff, I also find myself wondering how the width alone makes a blade difficult to turn, though I do agree with you about a round grip vs. one more oblong in cross section.

I think there are really two different things at play here in regards to "twisting in the grip", but I'm not really sure how to explain my thoughts, and I'm still thinking it through; I may be wrong.... perhaps "geometry" and "mass". The further the edge is from the centerline, the more leverage the wood will have against the blade to turn it. If the mass is distributed further from the centerline, it can make the blade want to twist easier if that mass is asymetric, but will keep it in line better if symmetric.

If the edge makes contact behind the centerline, as in striking with the tip of a scimitar in kal_aa's example, then the geometry will want to keep the blade in line. Likewise a strike with the tip of khukri will want to twist out of line.

But with mass, let's compare a viking sword with a wide central fuller against a sword of equal width and mass that's hollow ground with a thick central ridge. Since more of the mass is concentrated near the edges on a viking sword, it will resist rotation better and "track" straighter in the cut. (assuming we could negate any difference in the way those geometries interact with the target material)

In kal_aa's example of the scimitar, he seems to be assuming a strike at the tip. The center of mass is still above the grip though, so with a strike closer to the hilt, the edge may be below the center of mass, making it want to twist more. I have seen certain Polish sabers where the knuckle bow was made from very thick & heavy steel, which would bring the center of mass down closer to be in line with the grip. I believe this was actually done to change the sword's dynamic handling qualities, but would also help in this cutting example. Note the one pictured below also has a horizontal thumb ring. By getting part of your grip further from the centerline, again you have more leverage to resist torques in cutting and induce them in maneuvers. (and the torque likewise has more leverage on your thumb, which could mean a broken/dislocated thumb during a violent wrenching.)

 

[kel_aa]

I will divide the issue to three parts:

The first, illustrated by the cleaver, is that the furthur away a force is applied from a reference (in this case the handle), the larger the torque it induces. In this case I drew the counterroation your wrist needs to apply. To minimize this you need to move the handle closer to the edge.

The second is when the center of mass of the object is not in line point of contact (ie partially moving sideways). All things being equal, the torque is proportional to the separation between centre of mass and the point of contact. This suggests that they ideally should be the same (ie our rod of very small radius).

And the third is where does the handle come into play in terms of an axe or sword. Assuming that the orientation of the bit with respect to the wood is the same what would you say about the three designs (the first being like a tomahawk, the second a general axe design, and the third a hypothetical one)?

I think the farther back the centre of mass is with respect to the handle (middle one) the better.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think the farther back the centre of mass is with respect to the handle (middle one) the better.

Axes are center head balanced meaning it lies directly on the midline of the handle. This is generally an issue more of stability on the swing as otherwise the blade would want to naturally torque about that midline and be very awkward in hand. One of the standard tests for felling axes is to hold them by the middle of the end of the handle and see if they hang in a straight line.

I don't see where you arrive at that conclusion concerning bit to poll distance and the Project 1.

Once a blade is in the wood it is much more difficult to turn a wider blade than a really narrow one. You can see this readily if you watch Fikes video and he does test cuts on 2x4's with a sword (really narrow blade) and some of the cuts turn rather sharply and cut in an arc. He notes this is a technique issue (it usually is) and then does straight cuts with the same blade. If you tried to run a wide blade through the same cut it becomes apparent that a wider blade would naturally resist such turning far stronger and thus be more stable.

One of these days I'm gonna have to send my lightsaber for a passaround.

We need to have a cutting competition of lightsabre vs diamond mono-filament knife.

...leverage the wood will have against the blade to turn it...

Uneven wood can cause problems, it is an issue on frozen wood as it explodes, and similar around core rot and knots in poor wood, but generally stability is more of a technique issue. It is usually caused by less than optimal entry angle and lack of follow through. One of the biggest issues is just penetration because the great amount of the blade which is in the wood the harder it is to turn. This is why for example you can often radically increase stability by adding a relief angle to optomize blades for wood cutting.

Generally the amount of force necessary to rotate a blade about its midline is really small, hang a blade by the end of the handle and rotate it with your finger tips. Even large blades turn trivially because the rotational moment of inertia is really small along that axis. When a blade experiences forces in a cut which makes it turn only a trivial fraction of this is required to actually accelerate the blade itself, the main use of the force is to actually smash the rest of the material out of the way. Just take a blade and slice into cardboard and see how easy it is to turn a really narrow blade vs a wide one.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

Axes are center head balanced meaning it lies directly on the midline of the handle. This is generally an issue more of stability on the swing as otherwise the blade would want to naturally torque about that midline and be very awkward in hand.

Yeah. It's interesting to think about this stuff but there's usually bigger issues involved. Getting your swing lined up straight and true is more important.

Once a blade is in the wood it is much more difficult to turn a wider blade than a really narrow one. You can see this readily if you watch Fikes video and he does test cuts on 2x4's with a sword (really narrow blade) and some of the cuts turn rather sharply and cut in an arc.
....Just take a blade and slice into cardboard and see how easy it is to turn a really narrow blade vs a wide one.

Ah. I see what you're getting at now, and yes, I'd agree with you in that case, but it does hinge on getting the edges aligned perfectly on the swing. If the edges are just a little bit out of alignment, then the wider blade should theoretically twist worse. I also have to keep reminding myself you do a lot of cutting on very soft woods. 'Round here it's all hardwoods, so I don't usually get enough penetration for the width to really make any difference. I've never had an axe sink four inches deep into seasoned oak, for example, cutting across the grain.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Getting your swing lined up straight and true is more important.

Critically yes, but long term the effects of wrist fatigue of lopsided balance would be significant in that regard.

I've never had an axe sink four inches deep into seasoned oak, for example, cutting across the grain.

Generally about two inches or so is standard for a clear white pine with a decent long blade on a small tree of a few inches. You can approach four inches with an axe but you need a massive bit and that is essentially world record performance by someone like Wynyard and you also can't really keep that up all day long. I depends on the wood and what else has to be done. Generally I will start the notch heavily as you need the penetration to clear the chips but as it narrows and you are moving less wood I relax on the effort of the swing.

The hardest local wood which I normally chop is black spruce and penetration for a full size felling axe is about half of pine, though usually worse as pine is clearer on average. Of course most blades are usually used on saplings and such and thus the penetration is massively higher than on a full size tree. I do test comparitiative cuts on seasoned lumber on occasion and the penetration there is usually light. It isn't uncommon for example to take 20 chops through cut through a 2x4 if it is really well seasoned as the penetration is a fraction of an inch. I have done test chops on white pine 2x4's on occasion (very rare as it is finishing quality wood, so no one throws it out) and you sail through them like they are not even there.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have done a fair amount of bucking, felling and limbing with the Ratweiler and Cold Steel shovel, both with the modified profiles. Both are taken to the extremes in terms of edge angle. The Ratweiler can't go any further because if it does it will ripple on small diameter hardwoods and the Shovel is as low as it can go because it is flat to the sander at its current profile due to the curvature. Here is an example of one such comparison of the two blades :



With the optomized profiles the shovel is ahead of the Ratweiler, specifically 25 (5) % in terms of a chop count, and it is 45% heavier so it isn't efficient from a performance/weight perspective. Normally the chop ratio correlates well to penetration, but here the accuracy and precision was much lower for a number of reasons, plus the shovel tended to make curved cuts which also reduces its performance. The raw penetration was about double the chop ratio, so with much more practice I would expect the chop ratio to increase.

However the time ratio was low as there were issues with binding on some woods due to a combination of the flat sides and the curved cuts which are very problematic in wedging, especially on the first cuts. It wasn't unusual to have to work the shovel back and forth out of a cut so it was multiple seconds per impacts wheras the Ratweiler can actually run multiple impacts per second. However I did find the handle on the shovel to be more comfortable for long term use mainly due to vibration impacts on the Rat because when you move the grip back to get more power the ideal sweet spot impact moves back as well.

In terms of limbing the knife was generally far more effective than the shovel which was more like an axe than a knife and the curved blade also was problematic. However I would not say it was outclassed and it made up for it in felling because it was easier to get heavy power swings with the shovel on the waste relief cuts. Again though, be careful with heavy swings due to the tendancy to turn, you have to adjust the impact angle over a straight blade.

In short, with optimal regrinding you can turn the shovel into a very respectible wood working tool. Comparing it to the Wildlife hatchet it will be in the same class in regards to general power and penetration, though be much less fluid in thicker woods and far behind it in splitting power. The edge retention is solid, half that pile of wood in the above was bucked with the shovel and it readily sliced newsprint after the chopping. I can still readily dig with it in rocky ground with no significant damage to the side but for cutting roots and similar, to prevent against chops into rocks I would run a more obtuse secondary bevel on one side, similar to double bit axes.

-Cliff