Chopping Comparison - Axes, Big & Smallish Knives, Saw (pic heavy)

FoxholeAtheist

FoxholeAtheist

Joined
Apr 7, 2003
Messages
2,315
So I recently picked up a few axes and new knives, and since it is currently the first warmish day of the season, I decided to take them out in the back yard for a little impromptu chopping comparison. I suspect that many readers of this thread are like me; they don't know what type of tool to get for woodsy stuff or survival, and don't have a lot of experience. I've used axes before (mostly for splitting), and I've read "Bushcraft", but keep in mind when looking at the times and pics that I'm pretty inexperienced and that someone who's been doing this for years would probably be much faster and/or more proficient than I am. Note also that the times could be off by a few seconds because I was fumbling around with my Palm timing myself. :D

Okay, on to the test:

I found some chopped up pieces of tree in my neighbor's garbage area and decided to appropriate them for the test. I have no idea what kind of wood this is, so maybe someone can chip in with an ID based on appearance.

The victim:
Wood.jpg


The pieces I cut were approximately 2 5/8" to 2 3/4" in diameter. From what I've read, this is about as big as you would be cutting for shelter building and smallish fires.
Size.jpg



The contestants:
Before.jpg


What we have here, left to right, are:

Gransfors Bruks Small Forest Axe 34.5oz
Gransfors Bruks Mini Belt Hatchet 15oz
Silky F-180 pruning saw 6.5oz
Kershaw Outcast 24oz
Scrapyard SS4 (INFI) 9.5oz

I started with the Small Forest Axe because I wanted the most wood on the ground in case my aim was off. It took a few hits to get the feel of it, but I was immediately impressed by the penetration I was getting with the axe. Once I got into the swing of it, the large chips seemed to be just flying off, and it was very controllable. The SFA is the heaviest of the bunch, but since the inertia of the axe felt like it was doing a lot of the work, I didn't find it tiring to use. I went through the wood in 1:22.

GBSFA.jpg


Next up was the Mini Belt Hatchet. As opposed to the SFA, it felt like I had to put more effort into chopping with the MBH. The chips were (predictably) much smaller, and I ended up turning the piece over about 3/4 of the way through in order to finish chopping through it. I don't feel that this is the fault of the hatchet as much as my fault for not starting with a wider cut. Elapsed time 2:38

GBMBH.jpg


As a side note with both of the GB axes: it's amazing the difference between these and the cheapo hatchets of my youth. If you've never used a really sharp axe before, you simply must try one. :)
(see next post)
 
Just for the info, the wood looks like some kind of oak.. relatively hard wood.. interesting test stuff, thanks for posting... Maxim
 
Next up was the Kershaw Outcast, which has been reprofiled to 30 degrees on a belt sander. In hand, this knife felt like more effort than the GB Mini, which I'm sure is a combination of the greater weight and less tip-heavy balance. The rubber handle felt secure, but rather narrow for chopping. It tended to stick in the wood more (V-grind versus convex?), and thus took a little more effort when I first started because I had to keep freeing it. Total time is 1:36

KershOut.jpg


I next borrowed my wife's Silky F-180 folding pruning saw. Starting this was easy, and (unlike the previous tools), I never felt like it would send me to the emergency room if I slipped up. The uncoated blade did lightly bind a few times, but nothing serious. After cutting through the branch and stopping the timer, I was pretty surprised to see that the total elapsed time was 50 seconds!

SilkyF180.jpg


Finally, I decided to try batoning through the final piece using the Scrapyard SS4. I have read nothing about this, so it was trial and error for a bit getting started. The jarring on my left hand (holding the knife) got pretty rough if I mis-aimed and hit the spine too close to the handle, but overall it wasn't too bad. I was continuously stopping to turn the branch as the width of the blade was narrow enough that the baton would end up hitting the branch I was cutting when the blade was embedded fully in the branch. Total elapsed time: 9:00.

SYKSS4.jpg

(baton is under and behind the knife)
 
Okay, to wrap it up, here's the results in one place:

Gransfors Bruks Small Forest Axe 34.5oz 1:22
Gransfors Bruks Mini Belt Hatchet 15oz 2:38
Silky F-180 pruning saw 6.5oz :50
Kershaw Outcast 24oz 1:36
Scrapyard SS4 (INFI) 9.5oz (batoned) 9:00

I feel like I could have improved on the chopping and batoning times with better technique. I think I consistently made too narrow of a "V", which limited the size of the chips when I got near the bottom. Having said that, unless the people on this forum who consistently poo-poo the idea of taking a dedicated wood cutter are much better at batoning than I am, then the whole "Just baton through a branch with a Mora" idea is nuts. Clearly the most "bang for the weight" in this grouping is the saw. It only weighs 6oz, folds into a small package for carrying, can be operated with one hand (and is probably easier to operate with your "off" hand), and is readily available for about $20. That having been said, you can't split with it.

The time I posted for the Outcast is much better than the Mini, but I think I could improve the Mini time quite a bit by widening my V. (In other words, some of the time difference is my learning curve.) With the SFA, I think I widened my V halfway through with just a simple whack or two, but I didn't try that with the Mini. I'm considering going and fetching some more yard waste to test that theory out. (edited to add) Also, with the Kershaw, I took my "lessons learned" from the Mini and turned the branch over to chop from the other side earlier than I did with the Mini.

What you take in the woods will depend on your comfort level and weight-carrying capacity/desires. I'm going to still take the SFA for chopping and splitting, plus probably the Mini. If I were going for a long backpacking trip, I might consider ditching the SFA in favor of the saw, and using the Mini for splitting. In either case, I would carry a small folder for precision cutting.

I hope these results help some other folks like myself that are trying to figure out what the best tools are. I can see that some practice would improve my times and abilities... I'll try to post some pics and results as I cut up more innocent wood. :) Cheers!

After.jpg
 
i have never thought about using a baton to go thru a log like that before. i always split with the baton going lengthwise. very interesting stuff. thanks for posting your results
 
:D
Wonderful!

Nice job, I love these non scientific but practical real world applications.
Thanks :)
 
FoxHole, good job man!!

If I may draw a couple of conclusions from this test:

1. Large knives can chop nearly as well/fast as some of the best grade of hand axes, and actually better than their little brothers.
This doesn't mean hand axes and hatchets are the devil, it just means that a large knife can be as usfeul for chopping, and not simply be thought of as a superfluous ego-booster.

Secondly, and more importantly, don't underestimate the power of a good folding saw! Make that a GOOD folding saw. MPG may vary with brand or model selected.
 
Interesting times. I assume you had much more swings with the Outcast vs the small Forest axe.

-Cliff
 
Yes, interesting. Seeing that we are both in western Canada, what store did your wife pick that saw up in? I've been thinking about throwing something like that in my pack.
 
Witchhunter: Yeah, seems like an odd thing to do to me also, but I had read people talk about batoning to section, so I thought I would give it a shot. Unlikely to give it a second shot, mind you. :)

SkunkWerx: I agree that the big knife concept is not just an ego boost, but I would hesitate to draw too many conclusions past that. Like I said, I really think my improved time with the Outcast had a lot to do with my learning curve, since I had already seen what didn't work as well with the Mini. I should go out tomorrow and do round two.

Cliff: I would say that I had more swings with the Outcast, but I'm really not sure.... I think I had more missed swings with the SFA. If I do more of this, I'll try to count the number of swings also. I imagine you could go through a limb this size in about 6 hits with the SFA, eh?:p

Upnorth: I could ask her, but it's been several years since she bought it. I did a quick google search on "Silky F180" and came up with several places in the states that sell them for about $20US. Beware, though... I found that I could "flip" it open, so Customs might consider it a "gravity saw". :D

Glad you folks have found this interesting.
 
i dont think that it is oak i do belive it is sassafrass
maybe a type of iron wood
 
So I took the Mini and the SFA out today to do a little testing of my "learning curve" hypothesis. I briefly checked in Bushcraft, and confirmed that the V width should at least equal the diameter of the piece. I then went rummaging through the yard waste pile again and grabbed a branch that looked ripe for the hacking. It was a little narrower than yesterday's (aprox 2 1/4), so the numbers shouldn't be compared directly. I took a ruler out with me, and marked spots on the branch one diameter apart.

Day2.jpg


I found that it looked farther apart than I thought it should, which goes to show my level of experience, I guess. :) I then went to work with the Mini and had MUCH better results than yesterday. 47 seconds to go through the branch, and I didn't even turn it over midway through. Total number of swings (including misses) was 52. Turning it midway would have saved a good bit of time, though.

I got the SFA out and tried to give it a go, but ran into an interesting problem... Like I said, these pieces are just waste pieces, so they're fairly short. The longest branch I've cut has been less than four feet long. On the slushy rotten snow in my backyard, I was hitting these little branches with enough force that they were sliding all over the place. There was also so little weight to them that if the axe stuck in the slightest, it would pick up the branch rather than pulling smoothly free. These factors made it difficult to use the SFA to its potential, but I could see that if the stick would stay in one place, and I were to improve my technique just a little, I could probably go through a branch of this size in about 10 swings; perhaps faster if I turned it midway.

Part of the way through typing the preceding paragraph, I realized that I had never tried to "choke up" on the SFA to see if I could use it one-handed, so I went back out to test that. What I found was that by placing my hand approximately equidistant from the GB logo as the head (or midway between the end knob and the logo), I could use it one-handed without much difficulty. Doing this allowed me to brace the wood with my left hand, and thus use the axe for sectioning this small piece of wood.

I hadn't thought much about this aspect of axe selection before, but I now am convinced that I wouldn't want anything larger than the SFA for camping-type activities, since I don't think I could go much larger and still be able to use it with one hand.
 
I like a small head on a long handle for a pack axe. I always forget about foldings saws(not manly enough) but I shouldn't because they are really good especially on small live branches axes are no good at. Archers swear by them for clearing their lanes.

I love my SS4 and have done some batoning with it but along the grain.
The only technique I know is to have the handle higher than the blede so you don't break the handle. It is not as important with as tough a knife as the SS4 though.
 
FoxholeAtheist said:
Upnorth: I could ask her, but it's been several years since she bought it. I did a quick google search on "Silky F180" and came up with several places in the states that sell them for about $20US. Beware, though... I found that I could "flip" it open, so Customs might consider it a "gravity saw". :D

Glad you folks have found this interesting.
Click to expand...

Yup, I snooped around also, nothing local yokal. Probably grab a Fiskars from crappy tire. Have to go there and eyeball them.
 
FoxholeAtheist said:
So I took the Mini and the SFA out today to do a little testing of my "learning curve" hypothesis. I briefly checked in Bushcraft, and confirmed that the V width should at least equal the diameter of the piece. I then went rummaging through the yard waste pile again and grabbed a branch that looked ripe for the hacking. It was a little narrower than yesterday's (aprox 2 1/4), so the numbers shouldn't be compared directly. I took a ruler out with me, and marked spots on the branch one diameter apart.

Day2.jpg


I found that it looked farther apart than I thought it should, which goes to show my level of experience, I guess. :) I then went to work with the Mini and had MUCH better results than yesterday. 47 seconds to go through the branch, and I didn't even turn it over midway through. Total number of swings (including misses) was 52. Turning it midway would have saved a good bit of time, though.

I got the SFA out and tried to give it a go, but ran into an interesting problem... Like I said, these pieces are just waste pieces, so they're fairly short. The longest branch I've cut has been less than four feet long. On the slushy rotten snow in my backyard, I was hitting these little branches with enough force that they were sliding all over the place. There was also so little weight to them that if the axe stuck in the slightest, it would pick up the branch rather than pulling smoothly free. These factors made it difficult to use the SFA to its potential, but I could see that if the stick would stay in one place, and I were to improve my technique just a little, I could probably go through a branch of this size in about 10 swings; perhaps faster if I turned it midway.

Part of the way through typing the preceding paragraph, I realized that I had never tried to "choke up" on the SFA to see if I could use it one-handed, so I went back out to test that. What I found was that by placing my hand approximately equidistant from the GB logo as the head (or midway between the end knob and the logo), I could use it one-handed without much difficulty. Doing this allowed me to brace the wood with my left hand, and thus use the axe for sectioning this small piece of wood.

I hadn't thought much about this aspect of axe selection before, but I now am convinced that I wouldn't want anything larger than the SFA for camping-type activities, since I don't think I could go much larger and still be able to use it with one hand.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that a guy can go down to the river and pick up one of those dwarf "pocket beavers", once domesticated, wood cutting is a snap!
;)
 
Unsub said:
The only technique I know is to have the handle higher than the blede so you don't break the handle. It is not as important with as tough a knife as the SS4 though.
Click to expand...
Wasn't this discussed in one of those two threads about CS knives breaking while batoning, and shown that the least stressful way to baton through something is to keep the knife as level as possible.
 
I think it was discussed, and I can't remember if the angle of the knife had anything to do with resisting breakage.

I happen to remember one of those threads, because one of the knives broken was my Recon Tanto. :D
 
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