Chopping Test of Arizona Hunter

J

Joe Talmadge

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
4,842
Given the current testing arguments, which inexplicably all took place here instead of the Reviews Forum, I'll post this here instead of the review forum. I'm sure someone will tell me if they want me to move it
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Steve Harvey and I just did some quick tests with his new Arizona
Hunter. These tests aren't meant to be conclusive in any way, just
another data point in the big Mad Dog testing mess. We used the edge
that the knife came with, which would easily shave.

We started off chopping a 1.5" dowel. I don't know what the wood is.
It's harder than pine, but not all that hard. After Steve chopped
through it twice we saw the edge held up fine and decided to look for
tougher game.

So next was my 1" kamagong dowel. Kamagong is a very heavy Filippino
ironwood. Steve chopped through this kamagong once or twice, letting
the knife turn a bit and torquing the edge, to get some edge stress.
I chopped through halfway, then got the knife to stick, then lifted the
knife (with dowel stuck onto it) and smashed it down so the knife went
all the rest of the way through the dowel. We then examined the edge
and found no damage whatsoever, but it felt slightly less sharp to me,
though it was still shaving. I steeled the knife on a grooved
Henckel's steel, and the edge came back to good-as-original again.

We then chopped through a few more times, and one of those times I
again got the knife stuck in the dowel, then lifted the tandem and
overhead-smashed it completely through. I then steeled on a smooth
Razor Edge steel, and the edge again responded well.

There was no damage whatsoever to the edge.

Steve left the knife with me, and I plan to carefully test it out
more.


Joe


[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 12 November 1999).]
 
Sounds great.....my favorite MD, too.

But, really, do we know for sure it IS a legit MD ?


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of course.

------------------
BrianWE
ICQ #21525343

 
Good point Brian. This test doesn't proof s***. Since when do we care about how a knife PERFORMS? What's really important is who made it and if it's a "real" one. So let's remove the handle and check for notches... Only then you can be sure your knife is reliable.

(Brief summary of what went on here the last couple of days
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)
 
Ordinary hardware store dowels are maple or birch in different parts of the country, often called "maple dowels" even where they're birch. They're birch here in New England, but you guys are in California, aren't you? I don't know ... doesn't matter much; the kamagong test is more impressive anyway. Chopping forcefully at a thin piece of very hard wood concentrates the force on a small part of the edge, so that's a harder test (for edge chipping) than chopping down an oak tree.

-Cougar Allen :{)

But can it unlock a flying saucer?
 
I have not had any problems chopping though dowels either. The dowels I chopped into were labelled maple.

Try hammering the edge in about 0.5 cm and pulling the handle back and forth. My ATAK2 was the only knife to chip doing this in K2 particle board.

Will
 
Will --

The kamagong dowel should be a lot harder than even maple, I believe it's even harder than hard rock maple. Given that Mike saw chipping on a far softer wood, I wanted to see for myself how plausible it was that the Mad Dog knife was, as Mad Dog claimed, not his. I draw no conclusions from my tests, other than I feel it's at least possible that Mad Dog is correct, since I saw not the slightest hint of chipping in kamagong.

When I see Steve again, I'll give him the opportunity to twist the edge in the dowel a bit, and let you know what happens.

Joe
 
I feel that's a red herring there, Joe. Saying that just because 1 or 2 or x number of knives didn't chip, the one's that did aren't *really* Mad Dog knives is faulty logic at best.

Products are recalled all the time not because anything actually happened to each and every one, but because something *did* happen to some of them.

Not every knife is going to chip. Nor is every knife going to rust off, or break in half, or any other possible failure. But it doesn't negate the validity or legitimacy of the ones that do.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
>I feel that's a red herring there, Joe. Saying that just because 1 or 2 or x number of knives didn't chip, the
>one's that did aren't *really* Mad Dog knives is faulty logic at best.

Spark -- Well sure. Read my conclusion again:

>I draw no conclusions from my tests,
>other than I feel it's at least possible that Mad Dog is correct, since I saw not the slightest hint of
>chipping in kamagong.

To emphasize, I DRAW NO CONCLUSIONS. Doesn't *prove* anything. I just wanted to get a data point for myself. I'm actually anxiously awaiting your re-tests before I draw any conclusions.
 
An ATAK that has the edge chipped by chopping a clean 2X4 of any kind has something wrong with it. I've seen too many Mad Dog knives with aggressive edges that would chop through multiple 2X4s and still shave to believe anything else. Kamagong is very hard and the edge of my knife was undamaged, and if you chop anything harder than that, you are nuts.

That is not to say that the edge of a Mad Dog knife couldn't be chipped by pebbles imbedded in the wood as Aubrey experienced or something else unusual, but to chip while chopping plain old ordinary wood like Spruce or Oak, or anything else is not normal for these knives.

After all, even by Spark's reasoning, just because a couple of people have had edge chips doesn't mean they should all be recalled.
 
Joe,

Looking forward to what you find out.

I also, chipped my edge on the soft iron block that Cliff Stamp mentions. Again, it was the only knife to really chip, the others rolled.

It could be very possible my ATAK2 is also defective and I need to speak with MD. I have no way to tell if it is. From the what I have read, I thought chipping due to what I did to the knife was normal.


Will
 
Steve, yeah there's something wrong with it, the edge is too hard! Pretty clear and simple there.

And no, Steve, you've got it backwards. Recalls are made for product lines because 1 or 2 specimens exhibit problems, not because every specimen neccessarily displays the flaw. When I said it doesn't negate the validity or legitimacy, I was referring to the knives that do fail in some way shape or form: Just because they fail, doesn't make them fake or illegitemate. And yes, my spelling is atrocious.
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If there is a failure, and that is not the norm, yet is happening with any frequency, that points to a problem with the proccess, right? Something is going on that causes these knives to chip, and if it's not the steel, it must be the heat treat.

Now, that being said, does every Mad Dog knife need to be recalled? Certainly not. If you are using the knife, and you see the chipping, and your life depends on it, then yes, you may want to return it for exchange, because you may have a bad heat treat.

But I'd guess that most of the people out there aren't going to die just because their MD knife chips out. And minor chipping, while a bad sign, doesn't mean that the knife is totally useless, as it can be resharpened and reshaped. It's a warning, though as to what is likely to happen if greater stress is placed on the blade.

Ideally they'd test their knife (and other equipment) beforehand so that they know it can handle typical tasks, and would therefor have a chance to spot any warning signs before total failure, but that's life....

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 16 November 1999).]
 
Hmmmm, if I could get just a bit more edge holding at the cost of chipping when chopping an iron block, even a "soft" irong block, I think I would take the edge holding.

Also, my experience is that slight differences in edge geometry have a greater effect than different steels or different heat treatment when it comes to edge durability.

I honestly believe that the best cutting tool might not be the one that doesn't chip if you strike something metalic with it. A knife maker can always make a cold-chisel if they want to, but I've yet to see a hunter carrying one in the woods. Honestly, if I need to chop at something harder than hardwood, I'm just not going to do it with one of my handmade knives.

 
I am not really bothered by chipping on the soft iron block, but I am bothered by chipping when prying in K2. Prying in K2 occured long before I tried the iron block. On the other hand the MPK (A2) and khukuri's (5 of them) did not chip with the iron block or K2.

For the cutting and chopping that I do, edge retention on the MD is really good. That is one of the reasons I have not sold the knife.

Will

 
Concerning the iron block that Will mentions. The 3V blade by Ed Shott with no edge bevel could chop into that with no problems. Once in it I could warp the edge around by twisting the blade as the edge is very thin, but the distortions could be steeled out. Both Cold Steel blades could so it as well, as could the A1, the HI blades and so on.

Chips are a major problem and are a sign of over hardening and a fragile blade. While it is often touted that high hardness blades have excellent edge retention this is simply false. What they have is high wear resistance. This is not the same thing. Unless a blade is tough enough the edge will fracture away long before it wears. Note as well that blades that chip suffer gross failures under extreme conditions (accidental being the main consideration) such as sudden snaps with very little blade flex. As well they have very short fatigue lives compared to tough steels because of the rate of crack propogation.

-Cliff
 
Doesn't whether a hard, wear resistant edge is durable or not also depend on what materials you smack it into?

I mean, I bet I could chip just about any knife blade if I applied myself.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 17 November 1999).]
 
Some small knives are deliberately tempered very hard for wear resistance with the intention of using them only for cutting soft materials, never for chopping or prying or anything that might cause chipping or breakage; Alvin's full-hard 1095 knives are an extreme example. Large knives designed for chopping are a different matter.

No doubt you could chip the edge of any knife if you try hard enough -- you could hack at a file with it, for instance. That would be abusive. Question: Is chopping wood with an MDK abusive? (Answer at bottom of post, no peeking!)

If a camping/tactical/combat/survival knife chips from chopping wood -- that's not a knife; that's a flying saucer key. Knives can chip from nails or pebbles embedded in wood, but not from wood. Knife steel is so much tougher than even the toughest woods ... you can't chip wood by bashing it against a pillow....

Testing Procedures:
We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity believe there are several ways to distinguish Mad Dog Knives from Mad Dog Keys. The test reported in this thread is conclusive -- vigorous chopping at thin pieces of very hard wood with no edge chipping proves conclusively that is a knife.

We consider Mike Turber's test equally conclusive -- edge chipping on mere spruce boards proves conclusively that ATAK was not a knife.

In the absence of x-ray equipment, we suggest everyone who owns an MDK should first try chopping some hardwood that is only moderately hard such as a maple or birch dowel, or whatever you have available. If that doesn't chip it, we suggest vigorous chopping on small-diameter pieces of the hardest wood you can get your hands on -- most of us won't have access to kamagong, but if you go out in the woods and chop vigorously at small dead branches of trees with leaves rather than needles, choosing a variety of such trees, we think that will be an adequate test. (Different species of oak and maple differ greatly in hardness, and some of us may not know enough about trees even to distinguish an oak from a maple ... just try a bunch of different trees at random, whatever you can find....)

Please post your results. We believe probably many owners have chopped hardwood with their MDKs and never posted the results, especially if they saw no edge chipping (why post that? That would be like a newspaper headline "Airplane Lands Without Crashing" ... until recently, that is. Now we know some MDKs are *not* knives, finding out how many are is of great interest.)

The ramifications go far beyond the controversy over Mad Dog -- who knows, maybe other makers and manufacturers are making flying saucer keys, too? Why not test whatever knives you have available and find out for sure -- is that a knife, or isn't it?

There's another possible way to find out what you have, of course. We of the Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity are appealing for someone to donate a flying saucer so we can test keys on it....

-From The Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity of Voracious Truth

Answer: If it's a Mad Dog Key, yes.
 
Cougar,

So do I have a key or a knife?

Chops on K2 particle board, maple, processed lumber, walnut, etc. O.K.

Chips when edge is embedded in K2 and the handle yanked side to side.

If I have a flying saucer key where do I find the it?

Will
 
Steve, of course durable is a relative term. I could call a plastic butter knife very durable if I only intended to cut butter with it.

Cougar :

Some small knives are deliberately tempered very hard
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. That is why I said "tough enough". For some cutting tasks this toughness limit is very low and thus a very high hardness is possible.

No doubt you could chip the edge of any knife if you try hard enough -- you could hack at a file with it, for instance.
Click to expand...

I have blades that can do that. They will indent but not chip. There is a big difference between what happens to a material when it is compressed (indentations) and when it fractures (chips). There are steels that will resist fracture very strongly even under extreme conditions. As an example I have tried to chip the Busse #7 Basic when it was at full edge strength by doing full power two hand rakes across rocks, chops into nails, hitting it with a mild steel bar (5-7 mm) hard enough to bend the bar, and chopping through the bar. The best I have done so far it so indent the steel fast enough to a large enough extent so that when it is worked back into place fractures occur during sharpening. The extent of these is about .2 to .3 mm deep and about as wide. Once I get it back from Joe I will do cold temperature work and see how low I have to go to get the steel that brittle that it fractures.

If a camping/tactical/combat/survival knife chips from chopping wood -- that's not a knife; that's a flying saucer key.
Click to expand...

Depends. While wood is indeed a good deal softer than steel (you would hope), the blades are still recieving stress. Not enough stress to cause immediate chips (macroscopic fractures), damage is still being done if you look on a small enough scale. The durability of a steel is how long it takes for these microscopic breaks to grow and become visible.

As an example, I was curious to see how long I had to chop on wood with the Battle Mistress to see visible weakening of the edge so I did some experimentation. I chopped through some relatively soft material (frozen chicken bones) with the Battle Mistress, Basic #7, Steel Eagle and 18 Ang Khola. None of the blades were damaged (no surprise). I then chopped wood for an extended period of time with the BM looking for signs of weakening. After awhile the blade would not take a decent edge with a strop/rod indicating that it needed to be sharpened. Before I recut the bevel, I repeated the chicken bone chopping. All blades again passed (the other three had not been used) with the exception of the BM which fractured along a 1 cm length. Under a scope I could see chips about .1 mm in depth and about 1 mm long. These could not be seen by eye but could be felt with my thumbnail.

For those curious it was about 1000 pieces of 2x4 necessary to weaken the blade (I didn't chop 2x4 that was the rough equivalent of what wood I did chop).

I have seen weaking before in a much shorter period of time. I think I will repeat that chopping using several knives and get a more precise value. I have several other blades coming (a RCM from Livesay and a PAB from Strider) and it would be interesting to see how they stand up to extended chopping.


-Cliff
 
There is only one valid test! It's the old bullet test used by SOG in their brochures where they clamp one of their fixed blade knives and fire a .45 ACP full metal jacketed round at the cutting edge nearer the handle than the tip! I'm sure all other tests are incomperable. Then if the knife passes this test (no deformation of the cutting edge) you start working up to harder bullets and faster velocities till you end up at something like a .44 Mag firing 200 grain diamond or ceramic bullets!

Cliff, you up for this?

If my Arizona Hunter arives at my house in the next two days, I will donate it to the above test. If not, no joy. (I've been waiting for a year now with a military dispensation--supposed to get it before any of you civilians--but no word). I'm probably safe!

Oh well, back to sleep now.

Bruce Woodbury
 
Of course Cliff is correct on all points. Some knives indent rather than chip; I've accidently whacked rocks and seen that happen. The only way to chip that knife would be to whack the file repeatedly ... you can only bend steel back and forth so many times before it breaks.

You can chip a knife on wood the same way, by fatiguing it, if you keep at it long enough. I think you could chip a piece of wood by whacking it against a pillow, too, if you keep at it long enough ... I'm not going to try the experiment. For one thing you'd go through a lot of pillows before you fatigued the wood enough, so pillow testing could run into money....
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As I recall, Cliff, you try driving every chopping knife you test part-way into hard wood and pulling sidewise, and the TUSKs are not the only ... um ... tools you've tested that broke -- several very cheap knives were damaged by that, weren't they?

So ... maybe what Will Kwan has is not a key; it's a knife ... but a very cheap knife? I dunno ... it seems to chop better than you'd expect a key to chop....

Could it be that Mad Dog doesn't make just two different kinds of tools, keys and knives -- could it be he also makes some very cheap knives? Could there be another secret mark to distinguish those from the knives and the flying saucer keys?

Of course a reasonable person might conclude that MDK heat-treating varies, some come out very brittle, some come out good, and Will's came out only a little brittle, not as bad as the one that chipped on spruce, not as good as the one that didn't chip on kamagong....


But we of The Wholly Brotherhood and Cisternity are not reasonable people! We have a better source to base our opinions on than mere reason -- we ask our charismatic mystic leader and he goes and talks to the Cistern and when he comes back he tells us the Voracious Truth.

Um ... that's me, isn't it. Well, as of now the Cistern has not spoken to me. I'll keep you all posted on mystic revelations as they come to me....

I don't know about that SOG bullet test. Pictures in a brochure? Did anyone witness that test? Who provided the ammunition, and was the cartridge out of sight of the witnesses at any moment in the process of loading the pistol? I've taught some simple magic tricks to small children ... I used to know a four-year-old who could easily palm and switch anything as small as a .45ACP cartridge and you'd need an awful sharp eye to even notice it was out of your sight for a second. Of course he was precocious ... most kids probably couldn't do that well enough to fool a sharp observer until they're at least six.

Buckskinners do a competition where they shoot a muzzle-loading rifle at the edge of an ax; the bullet is split in half and the two halves put out two candles (I'm not kidding; they really do that -- not every try, but it can be done). That's a soft lead bullet and an ax. I don't know if the edge of the ax is damaged at all ... it can't be damaged much; they don't keep stopping the competition to sharpen the ax.

Bullet weight of a .45 FMJ (Full Metal Jacket -- means the bullet nose and sides are covered with a layer of soft copper alloy) would be roughly the same as the round balls the buckskinners use, and the velocity would be roughly the same if it's a full load -- there is no way to tell by looking at it whether a cartridge has a full load of powder. In any case a jacketed bullet is much harder than soft lead. And a knife has a much thinner and more fragile edge than an ax.


You can easily hammer a knife through a FMJ bullet and cut the bullet in half without damaging the knife, though -- it's soft thin copper and lead, nothing difficult about that. You could probably do it without a hammer, just push hard. So the only question is whether the sudden shock of firing the bullet at the knife could damage it. I don't know; maybe any knife can take that. There are a lot of people who are impressed by a video showing a knife stabbed into an auto body, never having tried it themselves and found out how easy that is. Maybe the same applies to the bullet test. Maybe any knife can take that, even $5 folders. I guess we're not going to know until somebody tries it ... I am trying to resist the urge ... the only FMJ I have is .380, anyway, much less powerful than .45....

-Cougar Allen :{)

P.S. Now it occurs to me -- maybe pulling sideways with the knife partly embedded in particle board is a harder test than chopping kamagong straight on. I doubt Will can get any kamagong, but ... Harv, how would you feel about trying that test on your Arizona Hunter?

Just to set Will's mind at rest ... the poor guy still doesn't know whether he has a knife or a key ... curiosity must be driving him nuts....

-Cougar :{)
 
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