chopping vs sawing : survival perspective

Cliff Stamp

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I have long been of the viewpoint to favor chopping tools over most saws for survival simply because saws are not usually as robust and thus in high stress situations they can be a concern. It only takes one bad push to crack a lot of the really nice folding saws in half which has a dramatic effect on its utility. In contrast, with a decent rugged fixed blade, or integral (synthetic) hatchet, it can take a very high level of misuse and unless you intentionally try to break it, the blade will pretty much handle even a very aggressive novice.

However recently I was doing some more night work and it struck me that chopping was really difficult in the dark. Now it might seem obvious to suggest to just wait until it is morning, but would you really want to sit all night with no shelter or fire. I then got to thinking about visual damage which isn't that unreasonable given a crash or similar, or even just thinking about people with severe limitations such as really high powered glasses. I wear glasses, but they are not so extensive so as to actually impair any work I would do wood craft wise if I had them off. However it still was of interest to me to explore the issue from an injury viewpoint which I have done before by taping up fingers, an arm, etc.. I went into the woods with my brother and then put on a blindfold and tried to do some simple tasks.

First off all it became obvious that it sucks pretty bad to be blind and I realized that there are some things I have no idea how how to deal with. How do you prevent being mangled by a wideo maker for example, which is just a large dead limb in a tree. My brother obviously checked but with severely damaged vision you could easily miss one and then heavy impacts or the felling of the tree could disloge it, or simply drop another tree which is leaning against the one being cut. Of course you can minimize the risk by sticking with small and isolated wood, but it still seems very risky to me because the tree could be supporting a heavy windblow tree which is far away from the base of the tree you are felling.

I found it sort of surprising though that I knew where my off hand was and could thus direct the tree while I was "chopping" it with a variety of implements. I was using a wonderbar and hammer to simulate a parang and hatchet respectively. It was no problem to "cut" a notch and fell the tree, but actually getting a well formed hinge was difficult. I tried a light maul for an axe but it was very difficult and I would never risk glances. However a saw easily blew past the "blades". I used an actual saw and it was no problem and I easily made clean cuts and then limbed it and cut the tree into rounds and then split it with partial cuts. Now it was much slower than using a blade/hatchet without the blindfold, but with impaired vision the saw was radically the least effected and thus has a major advantage for such situations.

Some other notes, I found it difficult to keep track of things. For example normally I just pop down a few saplings, throw them in one pile, throw the limbs in another and them assemble them into a coherent structure. Try doing this when you can't see anything and see just how long it takes. Literally minutes turns into a hour. Putting on the layers for example and making sure there are no significant holes is easy when you can see, very time consuming when you can't. Or even just finding the basic site and decent setup. I also found it easy to get lost so I had a number of small sticks which I pegged into the ground which all pointed towards each other and I notched to show direction, basically they were cut on the outside of the boundry, so a stick with a notch on the left marked I should go right to stay inside the working region.

Anyway this is a pretty radical example of a survival situation, but it again inforced for me just how critical light is and how important it is to make the most of falling light in the evening in such a situation (or batteries etc.).

-Cliff
 
I always carry a flashlight, kinetic so it doesn't depend on batteries, but even it could get lost or damaged.

-Cliff
 
I prefer the saw to the larger knife. Saws are easier and safer to use (at least for me), especially if injured, tired or cold. My other argument (the main one) is weight. My SRK weighs 12 oz. incl. sheath, and mt BK9 26 oz. incl. sheath. The SRK can handle splitting, and light chopping while a 6 oz. pruning saw gets the bigger stuff. Also, becuase the knife is being used for fewer tasks with this set up, the blade is at less risk of being damaged or broken, and will hold it's longer.

It is question of overall efficiency, and I guess what I am used to using as well. The 20 oz package of SRK + pruning saw is more versitle, and safer than the heavier 26 oz. BK9.

Will
 
Well Said Will,

Making firewood with a saw is much easier than using a large knife and the green stuff can be cut with the saw also.

Geoff
 
I also prefer the knife-saw combination, although like Cliff said, I worry about the possibility of breaking the saw blade in a high stress moment. I've used and abused my Gerber exchange-a-blade folding saw, my Sawvivor, and my Saber Cut chain saw with no problems, but still it is a concern that the one I'm caring for a particular trip may fail when no replacement is available. My solution (in addition to extra saw blades) is to:

1. Carry some form of minimum backup like a stainless steel braided wire saw.
2. Make sure that my knife can effectively do some light to medium chopping. Depending on where I'm going the knife(s) will be either an SRK or a Ka-Bar Kukri Machete / CS Master Hunter combination.
 
Good point... and you're not mentioning the mere fact of locating a tree, knowing if it's straight or curved or whatever... building a shelter without sight is really, really, really tough.

To me, this is a good point for saws... but an even better point for sleeping bags.

Just my two cents.

David
 
Another benefit of saws is they're significantly quieter than chopping tools.

I usually saw off sections of fallen trees, then baton to size the pieces I need for whatever I'm doing that day.

It's interesting seeing how well we can operate under self-imposed restrictions like this. Tying one arm behind your back to simulate a severe dominant arm injury, blindfolding, wearing absurdly thick gloves etc.
 
There are collapsable saws that stow into a 12 inch tube that look pretty good, or for cheap get a replacement blade for a saw, about 5 bucks or so,
get one about 24 nches, cut it in half and re drill 2 holes, then in the woods about 20 minutes of work with a sak, a bit of paracord, and you have a disposable saw frame.
The blades take up little room and weigh very little, just search for bow saw blade.
 
I guess we all tend to do things differently, according to what works best for us in our particular environment, and given the tools we normally carry. I don't chop or saw for a shelter. I will tie paracord to a tree trunk four or five feet up, then run it to the base of another tree seven or eight feet away, making a ridge line for my tarp or rainfly, or two military ponchos snapped together. I have also bent two or more saplings for the ridge pole, tied them in place like a wikiup, or dome shape. This can usually be done in the dark or near-dark, and no danger of chopping off a finger or gashing a leg. River cane is great for this, and can be tied in nearly any shape I want. It cuts with a single downward stroke from my 5 1/2" fixed blade if it isn't growing where I want my shelter, and leaves a good point to push in the ground without having to shape one. Cane is also very fast growing, so my handiwork does not in any way deplete the resource.

As for firebuilding, my fires are always quite small, so logs are not needed, eliminating the neccesity to chop or saw them. Most of my trekking is along rivers, so piles of dry dead wood are easily found at the high water mark along the banks. If I do add larger wood, too long for my fire, I'll lay it over the fire and let it burn into, then center those pieces in the fire. When I am building a fire to cook, as soon as a coal bed is formed, I move the flame portion of the fire to the side, so I actually have two small fires, one for cooking and one for heat and light. When finished, I rake the ash over the coals, and pull the larger pieces back from the fire where they will smolder and for the most part be there in the morning for the breakfast fire. For that one, I rake the ash off the coals, add some duff and small kindling, and fan the flame back to life, then move the charred ends of the previous night's fire into the flames to reignite. When finished with that fire, if I am moving camp, I'll douse the coal bed with river water, bury it, and carry any larger pieces for a quick dip into the river, and pile them in a safe area back out of sight. It doesn't take a very big fire to cook and warm one or two people.

Codger
 
Spare saw blades don't weight much. If breaking one is real concern, you could carry a spare. 6" knife + pruning saw + spare blade will still weight less than a 9" knife.

Will
 
I also think along visual lines at times . It is mostly thinking about navigating in the dark . I know if you cannot see it is better sometimes to close your eyes . It somehow reorients your perception to your other senses . I do not recomend closing your eyes and walking along a cliff edge at midnite .:confused:

I commend you for your dilligence . If I was ever stranded in the wilderness with a box of bobby pins and an aluminum chopstick there is no-one I would rather have with me than you .......... (Well Shania Twain comes to mind but thats another story.) :cool:

I have a gerber folding saw which fits in the backpocket and rides like its not there . For a twenty dollar piece of kit its is much more than an add on or an afterthought . I am not proficient enough to say whether I would rather have a good hatchet , stout knife or even a slightly more robust saw .

I can say I would feel leery with a saw as my first choice . I can hear the snick or snap of broken teeth as we speak . Especially if manipulated by a scared,cold , disoeiented , majorly pissed off , newly blind person .

I do see that swinging an axe or batoning a blade would add their own set of problems which would not be circumvented by said same person . I think he may end up with damaged fingers or worse .

I do not know what percentage of people who end up with an unintended forest stay have vision issues . It would seem at least a folding saw would be a good piece of kit .

While my E:d:C: of late is a file knife which I consider a little too brittle for battoning .(Read chickens#it on my part.) I think a folder saw and a small stout knife such as my becker necker may save the day . Thanks for the perspective .

B:T:W: When are you going to test yourself as to navigating in the woods with damaged legs . You could call it " The Toulouse Lautrec Trek." ;)
 
but an even better point for sleeping bags.

The more gear the better, if you have enough then it isn't survival anymore because skill/knowledge can be replaced with gear (consider the function of a house) Of course carrying all of this with you is a bit demanding. Things like large garbage bags are nice because they are both containers, nets, clothes, shelter, signal material, fuel to a fire, melted into tools, etc. .

Tying one arm behind your back to simulate a severe dominant arm injury ...

That is pretty drastic but just "break" your dominant thumb or index finger and see how much of an effect it makes.

There are collapsable saws that stow into a 12 inch tube that look pretty good

I have one of them, they are very durable but not as easy to carry as a small folding saw due to size. You can of course just carry the blade and make a handle which isn't difficult.

I have also bent two or more saplings for the ridge pole, tied them in place like a wikiup, or dome shape.

Enviroment is critical effect, there are no local woods of such nature. Alder does grow fast and will be of significant length in the 1-3" thickness which is easily cut, but the growth is erratic and it is very weak. The best options for a no cut shelter are windblown trees. We get a lot of rain and snow so deadfall directly on the ground rots fairly fast and thus it isn't a dependable resource and in heavy rain working with the direct leaf litter is very cold and it isn't very insulating or useful for shelter construction when waterlogged. It is usually many times faster to cut wood to make a shelter than use deadfall. Most of the local trees are evergreens and in 10-15 minutes one person can easily cut enough wood for another to build a shelter which is a solid windbreak and will protect well against snow and sleet. Water takes awhile longer as you need a deeper layer or nice barks or leafy vegetation which are not overly common.

As for firebuilding, my fires are always quite small, so logs are not needed ...

For general camping or hiking no, but I was talking about emergency/survival situations. Large fires for shelter would be of a concern for signal, heat, protection, and long term burning. Local woods do not last long and small diameters will only last like an hour unless fresh in which case they give little heat. If you wanted to sleep and still have a fire burning then you would want larger wood. Dragging it around would also not be practical so you would want to cut it to length to carry it anyway. I would not in general cut it to round lengths of course aside from making a reflector or similar.

Spare saw blades don't weight much. If breaking one is real concern, you could carry a spare. 6" knife + pruning saw + spare blade will still weight less than a 9" knife.

Yes, the main concern is simply breaking the replacement just as easily. Again I am speaking of a high stress emergency/survival situation, not hiking/camping.

-Cliff
 
The greats of carrying an axe, pruning saw and a multitool. I'm in the process of trading a small and large fixed blade for a midsized one. And all other small cutting jobs are done with the multitool. I was only in the woods once in the dark, and I stayed under a group of saplings, and waited until morning. Now, you may not have the same choice, but I think find something to stay under for the night, and waiting for morning to build your shelter would be the best(if possible), well it was for me anyways.
 
The more gear the better, if you have enough then it isn't survival anymore because skill/knowledge can be replaced with gear (consider the function of a house) Of course carrying all of this with you is a bit demanding. Things like large garbage bags are nice because they are both containers, nets, clothes, shelter, signal material, fuel to a fire, melted into tools, etc. .

IMHO, you are mixing up bushcraft skills and survival.

Survival simply is the fact of staying alive when it's raining shit. No holds barred. If I can get my hands on a sleeping bag, I'll gladly use it. That being said, it's a GREAT thing to know many bushcraft techniques that will allow you to recreate tools, insulation, light, containers, etc. Then -- again -- once you have all your neanderthal gear working and cozy shelter, is it still survival ? I think so. Life is survival + comfort. Survival is life - comfort.

But I'm drifting further off topic.

Another good point for the saw is that it's less dangerous to use under stress... or for a person with limited experience with sharp tools.

Cheers,

David
 
I guess we all tend to do things differently, according to what works best for us in our particular environment, and given the tools we normally carry. I don't chop or saw for a shelter. I will tie paracord to a tree trunk four or five feet up, then run it to the base of another tree seven or eight feet away, making a ridge line for my tarp or rainfly, or two military ponchos snapped together. I have also bent two or more saplings for the ridge pole, tied them in place like a wikiup, or dome shape. This can usually be done in the dark or near-dark, and no danger of chopping off a finger or gashing a leg. River cane is great for this, and can be tied in nearly any shape I want. It cuts with a single downward stroke from my 5 1/2" fixed blade if it isn't growing where I want my shelter, and leaves a good point to push in the ground without having to shape one. Cane is also very fast growing, so my handiwork does not in any way deplete the resource.

As for firebuilding, my fires are always quite small, so logs are not needed, eliminating the neccesity to chop or saw them. Most of my trekking is along rivers, so piles of dry dead wood are easily found at the high water mark along the banks. If I do add larger wood, too long for my fire, I'll lay it over the fire and let it burn into, then center those pieces in the fire. When I am building a fire to cook, as soon as a coal bed is formed, I move the flame portion of the fire to the side, so I actually have two small fires, one for cooking and one for heat and light. When finished, I rake the ash over the coals, and pull the larger pieces back from the fire where they will smolder and for the most part be there in the morning for the breakfast fire. For that one, I rake the ash off the coals, add some duff and small kindling, and fan the flame back to life, then move the charred ends of the previous night's fire into the flames to reignite. When finished with that fire, if I am moving camp, I'll douse the coal bed with river water, bury it, and carry any larger pieces for a quick dip into the river, and pile them in a safe area back out of sight. It doesn't take a very big fire to cook and warm one or two people.

Codger

:thumbup: Seems we have similar camps.
 
Cliff I have one of those chainsaw-blades-in-a-can (Someone will pop up withj the name.). Have you tried that product. It seems pretty rugged. I can't imagine it breaking on 6" or smaller logs. I haven't used it much 'cuse I got adicted to the Gerber Sportsman for backpacking.
 
IMHO, you are mixing up bushcraft skills and survival.

These are not directly analogus, bushcraft is a specific skill set, survival is a situation not dependent on any enviroment. You can use bushcraft skills in some survival situations but not in others as for example open water survival or urban or desert or artic. However the basic principles of wood craft would still be of value if you didn't focus on the specific tasks but the basic principles. Carving a bark spud to to reduce wear and increase ease of bark removal comes from the viewpoint of improvising tools to increase functionality.

Another good point for the saw is that it's less dangerous to use under stress... or for a person with limited experience with sharp tools.

Yeah, I'd readily give a saw to the young/novice with little to no experience and it doesn't take much for them to be productive. Give the same person an axe or parang and a little too much enthusiam and not enough technique can cause problems.

-Cliff
 
Bark Spud? Well if you have a dog named spud with you at least you'll have a meal . :D

What pray tell is a bark spud ? Possibility of a pic ?
 
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