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chopping vs sawing : survival perspective
- Thread starter Cliff Stamp
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- Aug 26, 2005
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I was getting the impression this was one made from wood ?
Cliff Stamp
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Yes, just carve a taper on the end of a stick. You can get fancy and round the butt as well and contour the grip. Bark is the dirtiest part of the wood and as well when removing very light barks the sharp edge and point of a knife makes it easy to pole holes in it.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
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- 123
as Vivi mentioned earlier; saws are much quieter than chopping with a knife/machete/axe. This could obvioulsy be important in a survival situation. When conducting recon we never ever chopped wood. Always used a bush saw or wire saw for cutting trees for stretchers or whatever. When moving through thick vines like lantana or wait-a-while vine we used garden secateurs to keep quiet- also uses lots less energy. Nice post, keep 'em coming.
Cliff,
I am highly impressed with anyone that actually gets out there and practices survival skills instead of being an armchair expert. I dont think I would want to use sharp pointy things without being able to see what I am doing. Thank you for sharing your experience! :thumbup:
I am a novice, but I like to practice some and test my equipment. What works for me is a LeatherMan Charge Ti, a Gerber Sportsmans Saw and a Cold Steel True Flight Thrower. For shelter I have a modified Coghlans Emergency Shelter Bag. I have the corners pre-taped with a metal washer in the corners and a cord pre-tied with a taught line knot. I should try setting it up with my eyes covered. I have three stakes to pound and one cord to tie.
I think if I had diminished sight I would be able to put up my shelter OK. Building a campfire, starting it and keeping it going would be very hard. I could dig out my watch cap, gloves and neckerchiefs (to put around my neck) by feel. I think I could pull out a trash bag and scrape things into it to use as a blanket. Id probably skip the fire if I could. I dont know how you would find water. I guess you might hear running water but that would be a real hazard; heart attack, drowning and falls being the real wilderness killers.
I am highly impressed with anyone that actually gets out there and practices survival skills instead of being an armchair expert. I dont think I would want to use sharp pointy things without being able to see what I am doing. Thank you for sharing your experience! :thumbup:
I am a novice, but I like to practice some and test my equipment. What works for me is a LeatherMan Charge Ti, a Gerber Sportsmans Saw and a Cold Steel True Flight Thrower. For shelter I have a modified Coghlans Emergency Shelter Bag. I have the corners pre-taped with a metal washer in the corners and a cord pre-tied with a taught line knot. I should try setting it up with my eyes covered. I have three stakes to pound and one cord to tie.
I think if I had diminished sight I would be able to put up my shelter OK. Building a campfire, starting it and keeping it going would be very hard. I could dig out my watch cap, gloves and neckerchiefs (to put around my neck) by feel. I think I could pull out a trash bag and scrape things into it to use as a blanket. Id probably skip the fire if I could. I dont know how you would find water. I guess you might hear running water but that would be a real hazard; heart attack, drowning and falls being the real wilderness killers.
Night time is a fun time to practice fire skills. If you have some woods or even a large backyard, go outside purposefully underdressed and underequipped and try starting some fires. When you get it going, it's a lot more satisfying than normal. I've been doing this bringing a pack of matches and a VIC Classic, going out after it rains. Getting drywood is fun when y ou only have the VIC on you. Like Cliff was mentioning, when you have little to no gear, your own mind starts to come into play more. It's exciting really, using creativity rather than equipment. I'm hoping to get friction fire methods down good enough to go to the woods I use for practice in the middle of winter with nothing but the clothes on my back and get fires going.
In Cliff's original post, this was a survival situation. Whether it be plane wreck, day hike gone bad, or whatever.
The point of these discussions is that something has taken a drastic turn for the worst, and we may not have all the material and gear with us, that we would like.
Day hikers wouldn't be carrying a sleeping bag, and even [gasp] when your plane went down you didn't have your paracord with you.
I srtuggle sometimes, and keep reminding myself not to become too reliant on one single peice of gear, or make the assumption I will always have all of my kit. I allow myself to assume i will at least have a pocketknife as I carry it 99% of the time. If I have my car keys, then I have a small multi-tool too.
In Cliff's case, without him getting very detailed I imagined a light plane having to ditch in the wilderness, someone with extremely bad sight and/or darkness, limited gear, and having to build a shelter.
Blindness, wow, lets hope that none of us have to "go there".
Nightfall, cloudy night, tough to see. Easily believable.
Assume a decent knife and a bic lighter, or a magnesium and flint.
Assume there had been a recent rainfall, so dry kindling has to be foraged, not just there for the picking. No flashlight.
What do you do?
I am thinking that I am gonig to do my best to get my natural nightvision working, then carefully check my surroundings. First a 10 foot perimeter, then a little more. get hold of a good length stick, to act as a walking stick and poker. use it as a probe in the dark to make sure you don't walk off of KevinTheGrey's cliff edge. If you or your pilot have the Bic lighter, you have some good fortune, because they make nice little intermittant flashlites.
Carefully shave some bark for tinder. Get a fire going.
Now you have some light in your area. Is there more wood close-by?
Is it a good area to make camp? Yes and yes.
Gather enough wood to secure the fire as stable, if wood is wet, stack it near the fire so you always have some drying. Use plane fuel to dry wood an make a nice toasty bright fire.
Proceed to shelter build. No paracord. No tarp material. Fair assumption.
Find a sapling, other materials for the debris shelter.
And so on.
Again, I try my best to handycap my thought-up situation, as Cliff did, in order to account for dealing with the lack of material you may otherwise have for a planned outing.
If any of us were day hiking, We'd have our kit, blades, firestarting material, paracord, and hopefully our health. Getting stuck or lost while on a day hike would be one of the easier scenarios, as when we hike, we typically have a good deal of our "wilderness" kit with us.
It's those unforeseen events, Car goes off road, down into ravine late at night. Small plane ditches. Small boat loses motor function, drifts for hours and finally runs aground in unfamliar area....those types of things are the more challenging scenarios.
Cliff, thanks for the example. The saw tool makes less noise, and is safer and easier to deal with in low light, as well as for "novice" use.
Cold, wet, tired and stranded + night time + hacking and slashing with a Big Blade can = severed artery, or massive fleshwound. Not a good way to start your survival ordeal.
Chalk one up for saws.
The point of these discussions is that something has taken a drastic turn for the worst, and we may not have all the material and gear with us, that we would like.
Day hikers wouldn't be carrying a sleeping bag, and even [gasp] when your plane went down you didn't have your paracord with you.
I srtuggle sometimes, and keep reminding myself not to become too reliant on one single peice of gear, or make the assumption I will always have all of my kit. I allow myself to assume i will at least have a pocketknife as I carry it 99% of the time. If I have my car keys, then I have a small multi-tool too.
In Cliff's case, without him getting very detailed I imagined a light plane having to ditch in the wilderness, someone with extremely bad sight and/or darkness, limited gear, and having to build a shelter.
Blindness, wow, lets hope that none of us have to "go there".
Nightfall, cloudy night, tough to see. Easily believable.
Assume a decent knife and a bic lighter, or a magnesium and flint.
Assume there had been a recent rainfall, so dry kindling has to be foraged, not just there for the picking. No flashlight.
What do you do?
I am thinking that I am gonig to do my best to get my natural nightvision working, then carefully check my surroundings. First a 10 foot perimeter, then a little more. get hold of a good length stick, to act as a walking stick and poker. use it as a probe in the dark to make sure you don't walk off of KevinTheGrey's cliff edge. If you or your pilot have the Bic lighter, you have some good fortune, because they make nice little intermittant flashlites.
Carefully shave some bark for tinder. Get a fire going.
Now you have some light in your area. Is there more wood close-by?
Is it a good area to make camp? Yes and yes.
Gather enough wood to secure the fire as stable, if wood is wet, stack it near the fire so you always have some drying. Use plane fuel to dry wood an make a nice toasty bright fire.
Proceed to shelter build. No paracord. No tarp material. Fair assumption.
Find a sapling, other materials for the debris shelter.
And so on.
Again, I try my best to handycap my thought-up situation, as Cliff did, in order to account for dealing with the lack of material you may otherwise have for a planned outing.
If any of us were day hiking, We'd have our kit, blades, firestarting material, paracord, and hopefully our health. Getting stuck or lost while on a day hike would be one of the easier scenarios, as when we hike, we typically have a good deal of our "wilderness" kit with us.
It's those unforeseen events, Car goes off road, down into ravine late at night. Small plane ditches. Small boat loses motor function, drifts for hours and finally runs aground in unfamliar area....those types of things are the more challenging scenarios.
Cliff, thanks for the example. The saw tool makes less noise, and is safer and easier to deal with in low light, as well as for "novice" use.
Cold, wet, tired and stranded + night time + hacking and slashing with a Big Blade can = severed artery, or massive fleshwound. Not a good way to start your survival ordeal.
Chalk one up for saws.
Cliff Stamp
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
I would want to be fairly familiar with how to use any equipment I carried even in the dark. It is a real challenge for many of the reasons you noted. You also want to be able to make sure you can do most of the things under stress as you may be with other people and be able to maintain your cool and focus and be productive in a likely very hectic enviroment.
Try to get some experience with knapping as well and then you have really strengthened a fundamental skill set.
Especially considering how limited you are with modern travel. I think the best perspective would be to always prepare yourself the best you can but don't actually depend on being prepared.
That is actually a fundamental rule of problem solving, just use reduce the problem to one which is already solved. Often a very difficult situation can be made a lot easier with just small changes which take it from the unknown to the known. Of course the more experience you have the easier it is to make such changes and the more likely you will be focused and confident because you know what to do.
Note as well that you should consider other people. While you may know how to prevent snow blindness not everyone does and in such a situation the above experience would let you show them how to be productive while they recover. Once I figured out the notched stick thing for example it was much easier to navigate a camp site.
-Cliff
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 78
Don't be too impressed, Craig.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3486737&postcount=134
Brian said what many of us already know and have known for years. One day everyone will figure it out.
and I supose you think a folder is a survival tool, going in the woods with only a folding knife is foolish, and juvinile. There are just to many variables that could happen.
Not to mention cliff takes the time to reviews these tools. No I havn't been on the forum very long, but thanks so some of his postings, I've made right choices that have saved me money( and that means not using a folder for an only suvival tool.
Not to mention cliff takes the time to reviews these tools. No I havn't been on the forum very long, but thanks so some of his postings, I've made right choices that have saved me money( and that means not using a folder for an only suvival tool.
If I can get my hands on a voice recorder, I'll go do another night experiment and record all my thoughts and experiences as they happen, then write them down for the forum.
Could you please elaborate on specific instances where you feel Cliff's information has been outright wrong or misleading in regards to survival and wilderness topics?
Could you please elaborate on specific instances where you feel Cliff's information has been outright wrong or misleading in regards to survival and wilderness topics?
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- Mar 7, 2005
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- 1,063
A shovel makes dandy bark spud. I especially like the swiss shovel for that. I actually can't find mine. I am thinking my brother has it in one of his iff road trucks, that is where my Estwing went.
AS to the main issue, saws, I am in total agreement- they offer a high level of productivity, are fairly safe, light, easy to use. I love my saws.
I like both the folding lapplander type, and the folding bucksaw style.
The only downside is that they are tough to sharpen, and it sucks when use one to hard and it kinks.
I have an extra pole saw blade (for limbing live trees) that is really agressive. I used one a ton this summer, went through several blades. They last a long time.
I want to take one and convert it to a handheld. . .
AS to the main issue, saws, I am in total agreement- they offer a high level of productivity, are fairly safe, light, easy to use. I love my saws.
I like both the folding lapplander type, and the folding bucksaw style.
The only downside is that they are tough to sharpen, and it sucks when use one to hard and it kinks.
I have an extra pole saw blade (for limbing live trees) that is really agressive. I used one a ton this summer, went through several blades. They last a long time.
I want to take one and convert it to a handheld. . .
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,063
Actually, the pole saw I use is a Fiskars as well. These are realy aggressive cutters.
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- Aug 26, 2005
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- 4,106
So this bark spud could be used with some finesse ? You could use it to remove birch bark to make sheaths and quivers ? I Am trying sometimes to remove the papery outer and the stiffer inner bark . Aside from the fact that it is more difficult to shape it is a lot tougher to remove with the inner bark inside the outer bark .
What width and angle would you recomend for this ? Of course there would be variances due to the type of wood the spud is made from ?