clam package vs boxes?

I have daughters older.

Clampacks, if properly stored do seem to age well. Sunlight and ozone can mess them up, discolor and make them brittle. Most common household source of ozone is electric motors, like fans and compressors.

Michael
 
I'd guess that a new knife,in the correct box,will appreciate significantly more than a clampak'd knife for 2 reasons:
1. Any boxed Ellenville Schrade is older than the clampak knife of the same model.Depending on the box,it could be 30 years older,or more.
2.Some of the real Schrade experts maintain that the quality fell off about the time that Schrade went to clampaks.
Another thought,that some might debate,what effect is there on the spring of a 3 bladed knife that has one blade half open?
It's a bitch to store a lot of clampaks as they take up a heck of a lot of space and the wife is sure to blunder on to them.


Ron
 
I agree to the storage thing- thats the biggest pain in the ass of all. stick a few of them in a box and its instantly full. Anybody know when the clam packages started? just curious-thanks
 
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415125&highlight=Clampack

This is the most complete info I have been able to unearth.

I'd disagree that the best quality knives were produced prior to the advent of the clampacks. Some mighty fine knives were produced both before and after. The gift boxes continues to be sold right alongside clampacks up until the end. And some of Schrade's finest work appears from 1990-2004. Yes, a lot of the WIP was/is hatched together crap. Knives were dug out of every reject bin too. And the stock of seconds from the company store was mixed in. The clampacked knives were no different from the boxed knives, other than the packaging. In spite of being told the dangers of ruining springs, I am yet to open a clampack and find a knife with weak springs.
 
Thanks codger good Info and I also agree I ve never gotten a schrade out of a clam pack that wasnt up to par, or seemed to be lower quality.
 
relodr36 said:
...2.Some of the real Schrade experts maintain that the quality fell off about the time that Schrade went to clampaks...Ron
Click to expand...

Ron, I had to come back to this statement since it intrigues me. Can you please direct me to an example of statements on this subject by these experts? "...about the time that Schrade went to clampaks..." would imply the mid 1980's, since the clampacks first appeared in 1985/86. I'd like to read their opinions myself and see in what context this was said, i.e. what exactly brought them to this conclusion?
Thanks!
Michael
 
Codger_64 said:
Ron, I had to come back to this statement since it intrigues me. Can you please direct me to an example of statements on this subject by these experts? "...about the time that Schrade went to clampaks..." would imply the mid 1980's, since the clampacks first appeared in 1985/86. I'd like to read their opinions myself and see in what context this was said, i.e. what exactly brought them to this conclusion?
Thanks!
Michael
Click to expand...

Michael,
Sorry,but I can't disclose my sources on that on this forum.
As far as the arrival of clampaks in this area - I can't recall seeing any Schrades in clampaks until well after I retired in 1995. I'd guess that it was around 2000 when they started showing up in K-Mart.
Of course,this area is sort of like Appalachia and isn't modern and progressive.Heck,we didn't have a nearby Walmarts until 2 years ago.
I'd expect that Schrade (mis)management saw the handwriting on the wall when they started selling to Walmart and got pressured constantly to cut costs/prices. One way to do that is to loosen up your In-Process and Final inspection standards and push for more productivity.
I remember reading an online article about how Walmart's relationship with Vlasic,and it wasn't pretty. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.
Ron
 
I can certainly appreciate your not wanting to name the experts here. It just sounded to me that several of them were in agreement on the subject of Schrade quality decline, and I've not seen that posted by any of the people I recognize as experts, here or on any other forum. I have seen statements in other forums in regard to the swings in quality control at Case, but not being a Case collector, I haven't seen this myself. But I guess we all have our own criteria on what we consider the definition of "expert" as well. I know enough to know I don't consider myself one.

I have no doubt that continuing pressure from WalMart played a role in Schrade's final demise, but there were many other factors as well. Those have been hashed and rehashed in the past. IMHO, at this point, looking for the definitive place to put the blame is beating a dead horse. I'll leave that to the real experts as well.

Thanks again.
Michael
 
Michael,
I disagree with you. I consider you a "Schrade Expert" and your knowledge has helped me several times.
In your research,have you been able to determine the time period that Schrade was a Walmart vendor?

Here is the link for the Vlasic-Walmart article:

http://www.fastcompany.com/online/77/walmart_Printer_Friendly.html

Be sure that you got the "printer-friendly" version,or you will facea ton of ads.
It also includes a few other companies who got into trouble by selling to Walmart.

some quotes from the above article:
"Finally, Wal-Mart let Vlasic up for air. "The Wal-Mart guy's response was classic," Young recalls. "He said, 'Well, we've done to pickles what we did to orange juice. We've killed it. We can back off.' " Vlasic got to take it down to just over half a gallon of pickles, for $2.79. Not long after that, in January 2001, Vlasic filed for bankruptcy--although the gallon jar of pickles, everyone agrees, wasn't a critical factor."


"Wal-Mart wields its power for just one purpose: to bring the lowest possible prices to its customers. At Wal-Mart, that goal is never reached. The retailer has a clear policy for suppliers: On basic products that don't change, the price Wal-Mart will pay, and will charge shoppers, must drop year after year. But what almost no one outside the world of Wal-Mart and its 21,000 suppliers knows is the high cost of those low prices. Wal-Mart has the power to squeeze profit-killing concessions from vendors. To survive in the face of its pricing demands, makers of everything from bras to bicycles to blue jeans have had to lay off employees and close U.S. plants in favor of outsourcing products from overseas."
--------
a link to a 1998 web article:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/schraderev.htm

"Copyright® 1998 by NEMO AND FRED PERRIN, All rights reserved."
"SCHRADE
SHARPFINGER and WOLFERINE
152OT 152UH"


" Created in 1974 by Mr. Henry Baer, to be a skinner, this knife is now a Classic amongst the Classics. (what will be in 25 years all these tactical models of today ?).
But who cares about a $30.00 knife ($19.95 at Walmart...)? "

My 1998 Shortline Catalog lists the Sharpfinger Old Timer at $33.95.
We can all guess what the $19.95 Walmart price did to other stores that sold Schrade knives.
I'd also guess that Schrade's price to Walmart was close to or below their cost to manufacture the knife.

Another link:
http://www.witiger.com/internationalbusiness/globalization.htm

"An example of North American workers losing jobs to cheaper labor overseas
Schrade is (was) a very old family based American manufacturing company that made, since 1904, a limited range of folding knives and fixed blade knives for decades at their factory in the small town of Ellenville in New York state.
Like many small and medium sized manufacturers, Schrade was flattered when Wal-mart expressed interest in buying their product - the obvious consequence was that Schrade would be able to manufacture in larger numbers and have a better chance of staying in business in a competitive marketplace.
Over a period of time, Wal-mart became Schrade's largest customer to the point where 80% of Schrade's product was going to the large discount chain.
Then, Wal-mart squeezed Schrade by asking them to compete with low priced knives they were beginning to source in China. Schrade could not match the very low price from China so Wal-mart abruptly cut their business with Schrade. Faced with the loss of its largest customer, Schrade crashed in 2004 barely reaching the 100th anniversary of the founding of the company before all its assets were sold at auction as it was forced in bankruptcy.
There are a number of "walmart sucks" sites on the web that have this story recounted by walmart insiders, and other similar tales, check <http://www.freewebs.com/wallmartsucks/>


I would bet money that knowledgeable insiders would admit that quality fell off once Walmart got Schrade in a choke-hold.
If you have employment figures for the time period,it would be interesting to see if Schrade added new,inexperienced workers to keep up with the Walmart demand.
In a plant-closing article:
"By Jonathan Ment , Freeman staff 07/30/2004
IMPERIAL Schrade, which turned 100 this year and once was among the largest private-sector employers in Ulster County, laid off more than 150 workers last year but had recently begun hiring again.

Employment at the Ellenville plant numbered near 700 in early 2001 but had dropped below 300 in recent months after a series of deep cuts that began later in 2001.

Schrade's 548,000-square-foot factory was added to the Kingston-Ulster Empire Zone earlier this year, and Catherine Maloney, zone coordinator, said Schrade cited employment of 382 as of Dec. 31, 2003."

Apparently Schrade knew they were in trouble in the late 90's and started spending money,maybe at Walmart's insistence:

http://www.truelocal.com/topicsearch5.aspx?q=pocket knives

"TUCSON, Ariz.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 19, 2000
Imperial Schrade Will Gain a Web-based Business System
Linking the Entire Enterprise"

Having had over 12 years experience with business systems software,I do know that off-the-shelf systems rarely work in your environment and are pretty expensive.
I'd much prefer to have a knife in the factory box that was made before the clampak era.:)
Ron
 
I appreciate your confidence in my knowledge, but I still refuse the title of "expert", just as the adjective "rare" has been overused to the point where it has little meaning any more. I am nothing more than an avid collector who has an ability to do research and find facts.

I don't disagree with you on your hypothesis that Wal-Mart played a role in Schrade's demise. But it was just one of many factors. As best I can remember, Sam Walton sold Schrade knives in his first store, now a quaint museum in Northwest Arkansas. Having grown up in Arkansas, I saw first hand the beginning of the spread of Wal-Marts. In fact, while in college, I wrote a paper with a title like "The Marting of America", eschewing what I saw as a trend toward megastores detrimental to small communities. This was while Sam still owned the stores, and could be seen visiting his "associates". And I remember well his "Buy American" program. I can still visualize the flag banners hanging over every aisle. Wal-Mart, before they became the "tail that wagged the dog", bought through a distributor, Aidco, if I remember correctly. Direct buying came later. I could be wrong on this, but this is the best I can remember.

As to the prices, few if any retailers sold at full MSRP. But Wal-Mart was built on bulk buying to obtain the lowest possible wholesale price on retail goods, boosting profits while still passing along savings to the consumer. His heirs have taken his formula to the extreme, forgetting that underpaid or unemployed residents of thecommunity have little buying power, even for the cheap imported goods. Still...Walmart was only one component to Schrade's demise. There were a dozen more, though some are just too nebulous to pin to the bullitin board. Wal-Mart is an easier target.

Michael
 
I hope this side thread gets moved to whatever area of this forum is for self inflated propagandists. I came here to give information about clampacs that I have personally witnessed and instead find attacks against an American corporation that provides low priced goods to all people. I wish for all our sakes that Walmart was still a 100% America first company, but what does that have to do with clampacs? They don't make things in clampacs they just buy and redistribute them.

First, I have seen clampacs rot and ruin the contents. My advice is to keep your knives in them only as long as they are safe and if there is any doubt, take your knives out and save any paper goods that were part of the package and keep them with the knife.

Second, if you are going to research something, don't stop at half measures. Give all the information or leave your wild guesses and accusations at the gate, because we all have opinions and like something else we all have most of them stink.

I like Schrade U.S.A. products as well, and was fortunate to buy one of their knives for my son just before they closed. Can you guess where I bought it? One of the only places I could find it in my area, and at a price I could afford. Had any of us known that Scrhade was going out of business would we have rallied to buy at higher prices, or would some people still complain about the profits of the "Management"?

I am tired of these threads, although I think I could mount a pretty good argument if you want to continue.

Maybe the moderators should take a stand against the posters who insist on going off topic, or impose some simple rules.

1. Full disclosure. The poster must tell everyone who he is and what his connections are to activist groups, Unions, political parties, and their ideology.
2. Complete notation. The poster must sight all sources and any bias those sources have.
3. Sources must be documented. No more, I can't tell you because so and so wouldn't like it. IE: Schrade as an independent entity is no longer, and any information that is in the public knowledge about their conduct is fair game.

I, for one, will no longer accept at face value the word of someone I've never met face to face. People on this forum could be anyone.

Sorry for the rant, but what I have read here is taking place on all of the boards, and I don't find it conducive to knife topics. It also seems to be the same people spreading the same message on every board as well.
 
I know it is tempting to answer such a diatribe in detail, but it would be counterproductive. There are in fact forum rules here, though not everyone takes the time to read them nowdays before joining. There is no active moderator on this forum, as most people who read and participate here well know. We are trusted by the goat herder and the head pirate to conduct ourselves as gentlemen, which for the most part we do. When someone new comes along calling people names, tossing insults, making accusations, it is quite disruptive and we use the post report function to let the board administrators judge for themselves what actions, if any, are deemed needful.

While it is not so readily apparent to a person who does not participate in this forum, many of the members here do in fact know each other on a personal basis. And we do try to respect other member's opinions when they are offered in a manner not obviously intended to offend.

Please play nice.:cool:

Michael
 
Hey why use a forum!!!! Number one rule!!! Be selective in what you except as fact!!! this applies to most forums and it is not likely to change overnight!!! If I wanted 100 percent accuracy all the time then I would not bother with a forum.
Fact is sometimes there needs to be open discussion before anyone can arrive a conclusion not previously considered!! Of course the more fact the better but it aint gunna happen over night.
Its possible to go to great lengths to prove everything and still not convince anyone!!! Once someone has built a good reputation on the forum they may not believe that it is necessary to back everything they say with more and more proof, besides if they were to it would get very boring very quickly for many readers and would read like a lawer trying to prepare a court case. The result would probably be that many would be afraid to make any comment at all, and that would be a greater loss!!!
This is a Schrade forum and for most on here that would mean REAL Schrades. Unfortunaltey there is probalby not alot of room on here for what is considered by many to be a copy of a Schrade, but that aint gunna change overnight either!!!! There just protecting there investment!!!
 
...old tools by name and nature...people on this forum are real people,at the moment I cant fly from Australia to personally meet you mate to allow me to post on this forum under your 'rules' although I do suspect you have a turd in your pocket with multiple issues.
You have the ability to make this forum a wonderful experience simply by leaving it....good advice on your clampaks..average by this forums standards..where we learn heaps providing one has an open mind to consider other points of view besides our own.....
Have a bloody great day mate and please handle your knives carefully once there out of those clampaks...
Hoo Roo from Downunder.
 
I think you got your name wrong.I think it should be Oldstool because what your putting out is BS.I suggest you read the nane and description at the top of this forum.One thing many don't see is where it says made in the USA.It doesn't say except for Walmart.In the mean time why don't you keep your China loving opinions to yourself and give us a break.Arnold
 
Have to agree totally arnold and larry: we all know the facts... If I wanted to know all of the facts I'd buy a book. thats why I come to you guys who are like unlcle's to thoes of us who dont know that much but, are trying to learn. And while were on it I started this thread and have been a pretty much nice guy and not said too much but be neutral all along but now I've gotta say- like the others said there is rules and these guy always get off of the exact subject and that is what makes this place great. I come here to talk to you guys because nobody around me collects knives. so how can you put rules on a bunch of guys sitting around talking about knives. (like what my connections are to political and activists groups) please! I love you guys getting side tracked sometimes and this is how I learn. so I say keep up the great work and, keep the great info flowing. joel
 
I like to think of this forum as a bunch of guys sitting around an old country store warming by the fire and talking about their knives.The conversation could go anywhere.Sorry if I have an oldtimey attitude.Arnold
 
There were several knives made by Schrade which were, I believe, only available in clampacks. One such knife was the burgandy handled 147OT Pro Fisherman. I also seem to remember the IHEA 5UH, the two FFA knives. I am sure there were more. I'll have to check my photo archives. Oh, and not to mention the bonus clampacks with playing cards, ponchos, compass, flashlight, and...and...

Michael
 
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