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clashing taste with a customer
- Thread starter Dan Zawacki
- Start date
He came to you to have a knife made to his specifications, I as a customer would expect to get what I paid for. But of course you're the one making the knife, if you don't want to make it that way and he won't compromise, give him his money back and you can go your separate ways.
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- Jan 25, 2010
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- 25
He's paying the freight. He gets what he wants. Simple. Quality and workmanship are the things you can control if you're going to put your name on the finished work.
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- Jul 23, 1999
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I saw this thread earlier today, but have a student in the shop this week, and didn't have the time to respond.
I had a similar situation a few years ago, and the experience taught me to never make the knife, if it doesn't "feel" right.
The request was very similar in that the customer wanted a knife with an overly large handle, and insisted on the handle being 6" long. I've been making knives long enough to know that the knife would be out of balance, and that even though the customer THOUGHT that was exactly what he wanted and needed, that he would likely not think so when he received the knife. Well, to my fault I allowed myself to be "smoozed" into making exactly what the customer wanted....my mistake. The customer assured me repeatedly that this was HIS knife, and that he would keep it forever. So, knowing that the knife would not represent something I would normally produce, I tried to please the customer, and built it against my better judgment.
To make a long story short, just what I was afraid would happen, did. About 6 months later I received a phone call....and the gentleman on the other end tells me that he had purchased one of my knives second hand, and that he would like for me to replace the handle because it was "way too large, and way too long." As he described the knife, the red lights were going off in my head, and when I received the knife in the mail, it was the knife with that overly large/long handle, that the original customer just had to have his way, and swore he would keep forever, because it was just what he wanted.
Rather than have an out of balance, and what I considered to be an ugly handled knife floating around, I tore the knife completely down, replaced the guard (had to because of the configuration), trimmed the tang, and replaced the handle.
I learned my lesson.
The customer is NOT always right. A Maker who has made knives for any length of time knows what works, and what doesn't. Most requests that are outside the norm, usually come from individuals who saw this or that, and think it would be "so cool", but have no idea what they are asking for. If a maker tries to talk you out of something in relation to building a knife, you should probably listen. Chances are good that the maker has been around the block, and knows what they are talking about. Would you insist that your mechanic replace a fan belt on your car..with one that is 3" too long, even though he tells you it won't work?? If you think enough of a Maker's work to order a knife from him/her, you should trust that individual's judgment and experience. Most makers will always to their best to look out for the customer.
If someone requests something in a knife that doesn't "feel" right, I turn the order down as nicely as possible, and try to direct them to someone who is less anal than I am.
I had a similar situation a few years ago, and the experience taught me to never make the knife, if it doesn't "feel" right.
The request was very similar in that the customer wanted a knife with an overly large handle, and insisted on the handle being 6" long. I've been making knives long enough to know that the knife would be out of balance, and that even though the customer THOUGHT that was exactly what he wanted and needed, that he would likely not think so when he received the knife. Well, to my fault I allowed myself to be "smoozed" into making exactly what the customer wanted....my mistake. The customer assured me repeatedly that this was HIS knife, and that he would keep it forever. So, knowing that the knife would not represent something I would normally produce, I tried to please the customer, and built it against my better judgment.
To make a long story short, just what I was afraid would happen, did. About 6 months later I received a phone call....and the gentleman on the other end tells me that he had purchased one of my knives second hand, and that he would like for me to replace the handle because it was "way too large, and way too long." As he described the knife, the red lights were going off in my head, and when I received the knife in the mail, it was the knife with that overly large/long handle, that the original customer just had to have his way, and swore he would keep forever, because it was just what he wanted.
Rather than have an out of balance, and what I considered to be an ugly handled knife floating around, I tore the knife completely down, replaced the guard (had to because of the configuration), trimmed the tang, and replaced the handle.
I learned my lesson.
The customer is NOT always right. A Maker who has made knives for any length of time knows what works, and what doesn't. Most requests that are outside the norm, usually come from individuals who saw this or that, and think it would be "so cool", but have no idea what they are asking for. If a maker tries to talk you out of something in relation to building a knife, you should probably listen. Chances are good that the maker has been around the block, and knows what they are talking about. Would you insist that your mechanic replace a fan belt on your car..with one that is 3" too long, even though he tells you it won't work?? If you think enough of a Maker's work to order a knife from him/her, you should trust that individual's judgment and experience. Most makers will always to their best to look out for the customer.
If someone requests something in a knife that doesn't "feel" right, I turn the order down as nicely as possible, and try to direct them to someone who is less anal than I am.
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- Jun 27, 2007
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- 1,797
I suppose that if you want to make knives to be admired then you should stick to your aesthetic sensibilities and tell him you can't build his knife. If you want to build a knife suitable to the specific needs of your customer then build it to his specifications...I'm sure big-handed people will find it quite lovely.
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- Feb 21, 2001
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I am with Ed on this one you will be judged by your work not the taste of the customer.
If it were me I would make it the way it should be. I would explain to the customer what I did right before he saw it and also explain if he is not completely happy he does not have to pay a penny. Worst that happens is you end up with a knife you are proud of hanging on the wall.
Chris
If it were me I would make it the way it should be. I would explain to the customer what I did right before he saw it and also explain if he is not completely happy he does not have to pay a penny. Worst that happens is you end up with a knife you are proud of hanging on the wall.
Chris
Tai Goo
BANNED
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- Apr 7, 2006
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I've had experiences like Ed's. You make exactly what they want and then, THEY DO NOT LIKE IT, for all the same reasons you didn't like the ideas in the first place. I finally learned and turn as many orders down as I take in,... maybe more.
...The joys of being a knifemaker.
...The joys of being a knifemaker.
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- Jun 20, 2007
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- 1,361
The knife business is still new to me. However I did do construction for years and have had the occasion where a customer wanted to tell me how to do the job. I usually tried to explain as nicely as possible why that wouldn’t work. Sometimes I even made some compromises but I always felt the ultimate decision was mine. You see if I did the job in a way that I felt was shoddy or wrong, it reflected on me. As someone said people should not judge you on one job/knife however, “they will judge you in that way”! 
I felt that my own integrity is based on my own how I do the job. So given the situation you are talking about being in. I think I would make two samples, whether they be out of wood or paper it really doesn't matter. The only thing about one of wood it is three demensional. Make one like the customer wants it and one like you see the knife. Often people can not see, in their minds eye what you are trying to explain about the difference, however when they can actually phyiscally see the difference they will understand why you are saying what you are saying.
Let him know how strongly you feel that a knife must posse balance, not only physical balance but balance in looks. If he still insists that is the way he wants it then YOU have to make a decision.
You have to ask yourself. Is this knife so out of the realms of what I feel confortable making? If the answer is yes then you need to be honest and turn down the job and recommend another maker in the area. :grumpy: You might hate turning down the job but in the end it usually makes it easier to live with yourself!
Now if you can live with the out of balance attributes of the knife based on the customers big hands. Well then you have to be aware that, this decesion may come back to bite you. But if you take this option, build it to best of your abilities anyway!
I usually turned down construction jobs based on safety but there has also been occasions were I just couldn't bring myself to attach my name to that ugly monstrosity that the customer wanted, because ultimately it reflects on me!!!!!!
I felt that my own integrity is based on my own how I do the job. So given the situation you are talking about being in. I think I would make two samples, whether they be out of wood or paper it really doesn't matter. The only thing about one of wood it is three demensional. Make one like the customer wants it and one like you see the knife. Often people can not see, in their minds eye what you are trying to explain about the difference, however when they can actually phyiscally see the difference they will understand why you are saying what you are saying.
Let him know how strongly you feel that a knife must posse balance, not only physical balance but balance in looks. If he still insists that is the way he wants it then YOU have to make a decision.
You have to ask yourself. Is this knife so out of the realms of what I feel confortable making? If the answer is yes then you need to be honest and turn down the job and recommend another maker in the area. :grumpy: You might hate turning down the job but in the end it usually makes it easier to live with yourself!
Now if you can live with the out of balance attributes of the knife based on the customers big hands. Well then you have to be aware that, this decesion may come back to bite you. But if you take this option, build it to best of your abilities anyway!
I usually turned down construction jobs based on safety but there has also been occasions were I just couldn't bring myself to attach my name to that ugly monstrosity that the customer wanted, because ultimately it reflects on me!!!!!!
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- Apr 11, 2001
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- 2,978
If you don't want to make what the customer wants........ just tell him that. :thumbup:
It should not be that big a deal that either of you are not happy.
There are enough people out there making excellent knives that he should have no trouble finding someone to make him what he wants to spend his money on. Simple as that.
In fact I'll give you a personal example:
About a year ago I asked Robert Dark to make me a knife and let me watch the process from start to finish.
Robert was gracious enough to do that.
In fact he posted that knife on the Makers Gallery back then.
I had a general blade design that I wanted and a specefic handle design, in fact I scetched it out if I remember correctly. I had a specefic sheath design also.
The 'designs' were not exactly what Robert usually makes........ but he was nice enough to "humor" me and make it.
The knife itself was the same extremely top notch quality that ALL of Roberts knives are.
They cut like a razor and hold and edge........
My hands are kind of big and I wanted an extra long handle with a slight bit of belly on the edge side of the handle. Other than that it was just kind of straight.
Many makers [Robert excluded] put a bunch of shapes in a handle that to me make the handle extremely uncomfortable to grip in most of the ways I hold a knife. Also many make the handle too short to suit me.
Oh, all those shapes and curves "look" really nice. And combined with a handle that "matches" the blade length makes a very eye appealing package.
BUT, no matter how great the blade is and how "eye appealing" the package is........... they are terrible to use.
Some in fact are just crap to use because they are so uncomfortable to hold because of all the 'eye candy'.
Same for sheath designs.. but, I'll save that one for another day....
[I hate "high rider" style sheaths. To me they are useless.]
That's my .015...........
Good luck........
PS/ That knife I had Robert make for me is now one of my favorite knives....... just about everything is how I wanted it.
BUT....... let me add this disclaimer:
IF, you ask a maker to make you a knife of your design and ideas; and he does so......... DO NOT blame him if you don't like it.
He made what you wanted............ end of story.
It should not be that big a deal that either of you are not happy.
There are enough people out there making excellent knives that he should have no trouble finding someone to make him what he wants to spend his money on. Simple as that.
In fact I'll give you a personal example:
About a year ago I asked Robert Dark to make me a knife and let me watch the process from start to finish.
Robert was gracious enough to do that.
In fact he posted that knife on the Makers Gallery back then.
I had a general blade design that I wanted and a specefic handle design, in fact I scetched it out if I remember correctly. I had a specefic sheath design also.
The 'designs' were not exactly what Robert usually makes........ but he was nice enough to "humor" me and make it.
The knife itself was the same extremely top notch quality that ALL of Roberts knives are.
They cut like a razor and hold and edge........
My hands are kind of big and I wanted an extra long handle with a slight bit of belly on the edge side of the handle. Other than that it was just kind of straight.
Many makers [Robert excluded] put a bunch of shapes in a handle that to me make the handle extremely uncomfortable to grip in most of the ways I hold a knife. Also many make the handle too short to suit me.
Oh, all those shapes and curves "look" really nice. And combined with a handle that "matches" the blade length makes a very eye appealing package.
BUT, no matter how great the blade is and how "eye appealing" the package is........... they are terrible to use.
Some in fact are just crap to use because they are so uncomfortable to hold because of all the 'eye candy'.
Same for sheath designs.. but, I'll save that one for another day....
[I hate "high rider" style sheaths. To me they are useless.]
That's my .015...........
Good luck........
PS/ That knife I had Robert make for me is now one of my favorite knives....... just about everything is how I wanted it.
BUT....... let me add this disclaimer:
IF, you ask a maker to make you a knife of your design and ideas; and he does so......... DO NOT blame him if you don't like it.
He made what you wanted............ end of story.
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As a graphic designer who works only with clients I can say that every day sees compromise.
There are only two questions you should ask:
1) Are you doing a good job at satisfying your customer's wishes?
2) Will the customer pay up when the time comes?
The great thing about being an artist is that you can make the art and THEN find a buyer. If you take custom orders, you'll always have to find a compromise between what you want to do and what the customer wants you to do. In that situation, the customer is usually, but not always, right.
There are only two questions you should ask:
1) Are you doing a good job at satisfying your customer's wishes?
2) Will the customer pay up when the time comes?
The great thing about being an artist is that you can make the art and THEN find a buyer. If you take custom orders, you'll always have to find a compromise between what you want to do and what the customer wants you to do. In that situation, the customer is usually, but not always, right.
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- Feb 1, 2007
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my thoughts...
If it is a using knife he is buying , then make it to fit his hand so he can use it.
If it is art he is buying , then worry about appearance.
Me personally , I would rather have a knife that felt right in my hand vs one that " looked right " and didn't fit my hand.
The handle is the user interface to the blade , if the knife doesn't fit the buyers needs , then what has he bought ? A knife he won't use.
I would rather make and sell 1 knife that gets used vs. 10 that don't don't get used.
I have handled knives that I thought didn't look right , but after handling them , the appearance didn't matter as they felt right.
Sometimes I think way too much focus is put on looks and art than on function and appearance.
In your case , you know it fits the customer , he was there in person. If it were me , I would make him what he wants.
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If he has the dough and likes the knife, I'd just make it how he wants...
You could call the model the friquehand and put some sort of disclaimer on it.
or Like the soup nazi on seinfeld you could tell him:
"NO KNIFE FOR YOU, ONE YEAR... OUT!!"
BTW, I think it looks great!
You could call the model the friquehand and put some sort of disclaimer on it.
or Like the soup nazi on seinfeld you could tell him:
"NO KNIFE FOR YOU, ONE YEAR... OUT!!"
BTW, I think it looks great!
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Why proportions can have a large impact on the overall looks of a knife QUALITY in what is done will always show through !!! Frank
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You know whats funny, the experienced knifemakers are saying one thing and the knife enthusiasts/knife collectors are saying another. Somone mentioned you will not be judged by one knife, So wrong IMO. You will be judged by the ugliest knife you make especially if no one wants it and it keeps making the rounds looking for a customer.
Chris W.
Chris W.
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If someone wants to be an artist, and produce pieces which appeal to them specifically, that's fine. But there are many "starving artists", and the reason they are starving is because they produce their art to please themselves.
A crafstman, on the other hand, is capable of producing a fine piece of work which is both functional and appealing, while at the same time satisfying a customer base that is large enough to keep the wolf from the door.
If you make and sell a knife which is both well made and functional, to a customer who has hired you to do so, I see nothing wrong with that.
It's possible that someday a given knifemaker will be able to sell anything metal with an edge because they have a name worth buying. But if they can't get their knives into the hands of customers, who will know if they are any good?
I personally want a knife made the way I want it made. Some amount of artistic variation is fine, but if I order "A" and you give me "B" because YOU like it more, then don't expect me to be happy with it.
If for some reason I end up parting with what I ordered, there isn't any reason for you, the knifemaker, to assume I did so because I didn't know what I was doing when I ordered the knife. There are many reasons people sell off custom knives other than because they don't know what they are doing.
Andy
A crafstman, on the other hand, is capable of producing a fine piece of work which is both functional and appealing, while at the same time satisfying a customer base that is large enough to keep the wolf from the door.
If you make and sell a knife which is both well made and functional, to a customer who has hired you to do so, I see nothing wrong with that.
It's possible that someday a given knifemaker will be able to sell anything metal with an edge because they have a name worth buying. But if they can't get their knives into the hands of customers, who will know if they are any good?
I personally want a knife made the way I want it made. Some amount of artistic variation is fine, but if I order "A" and you give me "B" because YOU like it more, then don't expect me to be happy with it.
If for some reason I end up parting with what I ordered, there isn't any reason for you, the knifemaker, to assume I did so because I didn't know what I was doing when I ordered the knife. There are many reasons people sell off custom knives other than because they don't know what they are doing.
Andy