Class III licenses?

[tallpaul]

A mp5sd is ALOT more expensive than a regular plus the additional tax and can... generally. A friend of mine has that set up and while nice I prefer the standard mp-5 and an aftermarket can. I wish I would have got into the class 3 world before verything went nutz... it is absolute BS that we can not buy new mg's for the price of new. The collector nature of the game is unreal at this point on the MG's. There are several systems out there fore can attatchment. Gemtech makes one... Semi auto's can have slide locks fitted to "lock" the slide and eliminate that part of the equation. Bullet slap- or the noise of the bullet hitting the target can be quite load and if close confuse the unknowledgable with firing noise. It is really an interesting hobby. No where near as "evil" as some would have you believe.

 

[Sid Post]

Well, m1Marty, what I can tell you from the experience of having done it getting on six years ago, is that when I did it, the USP Tactical (with is very similar to the Mk23 (and, as I said, I have not seen the movie in question) when fitted to receive the removable silencer was considered a Class III weapon unto itself and I had to do two Form 4s and buy two $200 tax stamps. Had I elected a pistol with a non-removable silencer, it would have been only one $200 stamp.

$200 on your pistol? That is not required unless you are doing something to it like putting a shoulder stock on or some other modification.

You can also get into some odd legal issues that are "use" related. HK PDW briefcases come to mind as do the holsters you can shoot from while the pistol is still holstered.

Was the $200 tax stamp on your pistol driven by state statute or local civil ordinance?

 

[Sid Post]

What I can also tell you from experience with a getting-on-six-year-old unit, is that the silencer, while very effective (especially with a bit of water in it), does not reduce the .45 to what I'd call a "dull pop." It's certainly not as effective as what I usually see in the movies.

If your "can" is a stock six year old unit, you may want to consider having it upgraded to current technology. Things have really gotten a lot better, and quieter.

Hollywood still presents an unrealistic perspective on sound suppressors but, they are pretty darn good these days for ~$600 for the can and $200 for the one time tax.

 

[Sid Post]

He corrected himself and said, "I can fit a silencer to any pistol... except that one." The pistol in question is an H&K P7 with pneumatic recoil reduction. Do you know if they've solved that stumbling block yet?

Yes, you can suppress an HK P7. The extended barrels from HK are pre-threaded and simplify the task. You still have issues with gas blow back though so it is something I would not personally recommend except for truly "special use" applications.

 

[Sid Post]

On the P7, I am not sure. There are two solutions that come to mind- the "neilson" device and Gemtechs "L.I.D." Both offer an extra rearward "push" to help difficult to cycle guns run correctly. May work on yours?
Here is the Gemtech L.I.D. *EDIT* On second thought, the two above mentioned items would be moot on your gun "I Think" due to the fixed barrel. They are used for a tilting barrel application. With that in mind, I would ask one of the can companies what they think. The only thing that comes to mind as a problem is maybe pressure?
http://www.gem-tech.com/sos_45.html

A fixed barrel pistol eliminates inertia related effects on cycling which is a very good feature. The HK P9's were popular suppressed pistols for this application when cans were heavy.

The P7 has an issue with the gas blow back that occurs since it doesn't exhaust the way it does unsuppressed.

Since modern cans are much lighter in weight, you have many options that don't involve inertia devices or modifications to allow the pistol to cycle reliably.

 

[Sid Post]

Back around 1989 or so I remember reading about a supressor that attached to the Beretta 92 pistol without any threads. I wonder if that one is still made..

I also vaguely remember that it was maybe issued to USAF pilots?

I think you are referring to the Knights can that slipped on the muzzle and has a pin that slides into a notch in the barrel itself. At least I think Knights had the original contract and the design. A few other companies made clones of that can for the civilian market.

 

[Sid Post]

If you wan't a semi-automatic AND you wan't to go thru the paperwork you might look into the H&K MP5SD, also a class III firearm but with integral suppressor.

Any of the HK class three items are going to cost serious money in the day of the investment collector.

If you are buying an MP5SD to avoid the double $200 tax, be careful. Civilian MP5SD's often are dual tax guns because the Integral can is not welded to the firearm.

A stock MP5 with an aftermarket can is much better solution for almost any use IMHO.

If you want a heavy hitter in a short barreled semi-auto rifle for personal defense or recreation, I would look at the AR-15 variants. The 458 Soccom and 50 Beowulf are both options which can suppressed effectively with the right loads.

 

[Gollnick]

If your "can" is a stock six year old unit, you may want to consider having it upgraded to current technology. Things have really gotten a lot better, and quieter.

I looked very closely at the Gem Tech unit on the website. I'd like to try one. But six hundred bucks plus two hundred more is a lot.

 

[Gollnick]

Yes, you can suppress an HK P7. The extended barrels from HK are pre-threaded and simplify the task. You still have issues with gas blow back though so it is something I would not personally recommend except for truly "special use" applications.

I'm gonna ask around about that again. My understanding at thie time is that the gas recoil reduction system didn't cooperate well with silencers at the time. But that was probably five years ago. Hopefully, there have been advances.

 

[razcob]

Yes, you can suppress an HK P7. The extended barrels from HK are pre-threaded and simplify the task. You still have issues with gas blow back though so it is something I would not personally recommend except for truly "special use" applications.

 

[Geraldo]

If you are buying an MP5SD to avoid the double $200 tax, be careful. Civilian MP5SD's often are dual tax guns because the Integral can is not welded to the firearm.

If you're going to buy an MP5 of any sort, the going rate is roughly $10K, so the extra $200 won't hurt too badly.

One issue with Class 3, that might explain Chuck's odd story, is that a lot depends on which office of the ATF you deal with. The people that work there often don't know which end of a gun is which, and their grasp of applicable rules isn't much better. I've had friends get three different answers from three different people in the same office, on the same question.

 

[Sid Post]

I looked very closely at the Gem Tech unit on the website. I'd like to try one. But six hundred bucks plus two hundred more is a lot.

Have your can rebuilt and save the $200 tax. If the original manufacturer is still around, they can probably bring it up to current specs for about half the price of a new can. That might be ~$300 well spent.

 

[Gollnick]

Well there it is, P7M8SD, even though it's wearing M13 grips.

I want one! But I can't figure out where to get one.

Google gets two hits. One is the same site you have there and the other is an unanswered post on some forum site asking for a picture of one.

 

[Gollnick]

Have your can rebuilt and save the $200 tax. If the original manufacturer is still around, they can probably bring it up to current specs for about half the price of a new can. That might be ~$300 well spent.

That's a good tip. Knight's Armament is still very much a going concern.

It's a bit like some cities where it's impossible to get a permit to build a new house, so people just remodel the old ones... remodeling often consisting of tearing down and carting away everything except one brick.

 

[Sid Post]

Well there it is, P7M8SD, even though it's wearing M13 grips.

I want one! But I can't figure out where to get one.

Your best bet is to watch www.subguns.com and buy the barrel which runs about $350 for an original German unfired unmounted barrel. Then take your P7 to a qualified gunsmith and have it mounted. That is going to be your only option to the best of my knowledge since these pistols never hit the civilian market. You also might want to talk to the folks at Capitol City Firearms (http://www.ccfa.com/HKPISTOLS.htm) since they import European market only HK pistols themselves.

 

[Gollnick]

Sid, that is great information since H&K told me by e-mail that the SD is not available in the US and my dealer says he has no idea how to order one (though he'll try, of course).

Thanks.