Clay coat along spine question

ok,,,lets talk about that idea...

right now I use a ton of warmed water so that I get a min of 6 to 8 inches of water on all sides of the blade.

as the sword will curve and the point move around under the water, I point the blade down into the water deeper so that I dont take a chance of the point popping out during the quench.

IF
if i switched to oil...say mineral oil, and I built some type of quench tank that about 5 foot long, and about a foot deep,,,and got a way to heat the oil to speed it up....

What would I do any different?

Right now I do what Wally Hayes calls his "Interupted Quench" where I dunkl and hold for a few seconds, then lift out of the water for a few seconds, then dunk again.

does that system change in a oil quench?
 
Again, the dynamics are probably totally different here and I've never attempted a sword, but for my knives I heat to critical and toss the whole thing in warm oil. I probably should leave them in until the oil is cooled down, but I leave them in for a minute or two, set them on the workbench, clean off the gunk, then temper from there. My understanding is that oil is a much more gentle medium for quenching than water. The one attempt I made at quenching 1084 in water resulted in a crack that went nearly through the entire blade. Sean Perkins used to clay coat A-2 and quench in a salt water brine, which is a lot for A2 to endure, and he said he cracked knives more often than not, but the ones that made it through were tough as nails! There's just too much work for you to keep cracking blades. :(
 
I saw somewhere... on a Japanese sword site?
Straightening a bend in a blade using a heated slotted copper block...
I'll probably find it just after someone gives you a better way.
 
lets review how I have done so far with the water quench...

Blade 1- so-so curve

Blade 2 - very very good curve

Blade 3- Kinda good curve

Blade -4 cracked in water quench

Blade 5 - cracked in vise

Blade 6- last night,,,cracked in water,

Blade 7... on workbench,,,,,the water before it,,,,
 
What kind of steel u are using. if 1095 or 1084 they have not constant composition. One may have 1.1% Carbon one stock may have 0.8%. U should change your steel, may be it has much more carbon than expected.

I am just thinking, may also carburization be the cause. :confused:
 
What are you using for a quench besides water. I use solar salt for water softeners you can get it at most hardware stores and its about $3.00 for a 50lb bag. Boil the water and keep adding salt until it wont desolve anymore. Quench the blade in hot water. your steel may also be the problem, the higher the carbon the more difficult the water quench becomes, using 1060 will be easier to water quench and will also give you a bolder temper line, also if you only heat the steel to the lowwer end of the hardening range it will go easier in the quech and produce a bolder temper line. a second dip in the quench is not nessessary you want to take the steel from hardening temp to less than 1000 degrees in about 1 second. give it about 3 seconds pull it out. The steel should still be hot around 400 degrees, thats good and you're done. The stress really builds up when the steel gets around 400, thats when the cracking will happen. I know your pain, been there. Run a small test piece first the same depth and thickness
 
galadduin said:
What kind of steel u are using.
Click to expand...

Im just doing what is shown in the Wally Hayes KATANA video. Mr Hayes uses 1050 tool steel, so thats what I got...

However, Wally says to only use a thicker steel that what I got it in. I wanted to try to see if I could pull off a water quench with only 1/4 inch thick steel,.

so far Im wrong, and I have proved that Mr Hayes was correct, I should have ordered the thicker steel.

This last blade is the last chance I have to make a Katana, because the winter is about over and I will be working full time in not very long.

I tried to do this with 1/4 inch steel, I have clearly failed, but I have learned a ton of things.

Next year I will stick with 3/8 inch steel..
 
R APPLEBY said:
What are you using for a quench besides water. I use solar salt for water softener
Click to expand...

about your whole darn post is news to me....LOL
I dont have any idea about adding salt to the water.
I just use water from the tap.
Now about your advice on how to quench...

Here is what I do and what I see going on. Please read and advise...

I heat the blade all even and all past critical.
I run the blade into the shop, (20 feet or so) and dunk right into the water.

Wally Hayes says to pre-heat the water to 105, however as this is the dead of winter I do what I can, I do have a heater under a stock tank working all the time, but the water is still always going to be cold out in my unheated shop.

With the blade in the water I count to 4

I raise the blade out of the water.

I notice at this point that the curve of the Katana goes the wrong way. Because different sections are doing different things, the blade curves over the cutting edge. sometimes it curves foward a lot.

after I count to about 3 or 4, I dunk again in the water and hang on because the blade screams as the curve switches to the nice looking curve the other direction.

after the blade stops moveing, I take it back to the fire and heat until all the water is dry, then quench again

I repeat the step above again.

I run cold blade into kitcken and stick in oven set at 300 for one hour,,,,


(at this point I normally notice the blade is cracked, and scream myself, toss blade into back yard.....turn on TV,,,open beer.....drink beer while watching a pointless reality TV show, toss empty beer can at cat.....then get up and start the next blade)
 
Jeez! I've never actually seen this in action before. I think if I saw a blade bend one way, then slam into a bend going the other way I'd puke! :barf: I'm dizzy just thinking about it! Can somebody do a video of this phenomenon?!

DaQo'tah, you've got cojones! I'm sticking to my little knives and the little oil bath I use. La la lalala. I feel like a girl skipping through the pansy field when I read stuff like this. How long does it take you to grind one of the blades out to begin with?
 
I did it!

I really took the suck out of my successes.

I took all the advice I have received, and did another Katana this morning. I was a grinding monster this morning!....I might not be able to finish a blade as fast as most, But I have learned to grind out a profile of a Katana in a matter of a few hours!

I wrapped the spine in a full coat of clay,,,very thick...

I wrapped wire into the soft clay and then added a coat of clay over that too.

I gave up the use of coal, and fired up my indoor gas forge.

I was very VERY carefull as I ran the sword in and out of the hot forge, I kept every part equally hot

I checked with a magnet closely.

I dunked right away...I counted to 5 this time, then lifted out the blade.

I looked at it, the blade was still straight.

I dunked again and turned the blade sideways to watch it in the water.

The blade started to scream!

I lifted it out of the water for a 2nd time, now the wrong-way curve was starting to form. I dunked it again into the water.

I watched the blade complete the wrong-way curve.

I lifted it out of the water a 3rd time, and dunked it under again...

I twisted the blade on it's side under the water and watched the blade curve back to the correct direction....It took a lot longer to move that I had ever dreamed..

Once I thought it was done moving, I lifted the still very hot blade out of the water and put it back into the turned off forge to get rid of some stress.

I dunked the blade,,,,I did this 2 more times...

Blade is perfect!.....HUGE curve, just like a Katana should have....KILLER look to the thing.....

time to temper in oven....BBL
 
Congrats!!!!!!!!Glad it worked out for ya although I thought it is supposed to be third times a charm ;) :D . For your next project look into the brine it makes a big difference, straight water is to fast of a quench, the salt slows it down a bit and increases the boiling temp of the water and if you slow it down a bit more sqirt some dish soap in the quench. 20feet from the fire to the quench tank??? remember blade needs to be taken from critical to less than 1000 in about a second on 10XX steels, so wheres the pic of the project so far. If you're not havin fun you must be learning something new its all good. :)
 
R APPLEBY said:
20feet from the fire to the quench tank???
Click to expand...

ahh,,,yes,,,about that 20 foot dash I have to make to the quench tank....

The reason is:..well...It's all connected to all the other reasons.
1- i live on a small farm far from the city
2- I live in North Dakota
3-there are no trees in North Dakota
4- it's winter time, and the wind never stops
5- I am useing Wally Haye's video as my guide, and he shows how to build a 5 foot long coal forge outside.

6- I made a 5 foot long forge that I have to move from place to place so as to not burn down my shop, because the sparks are going sideways, because the wind is so strong, because there is no trees for 500 miles to break up the wind, because I live in North Dakota.....

It's all connected....

(However, in the Hayes video, Mr Hayes shows that it is important to take the hot sword out of the forge, then hold it for about 4 seconds to allow the heat on the different areas of the sword to even out. This 4 seconds that he just is holding the hot sword over the quench tank, is my window of time that I needed to dash back into the shop with the red hot Katana....

so,,,it's all connected....and it almost works.
 
R APPLEBY said:
so wheres the pic of the project so far. If you're not havin fun you must be learning something new its all good. :)
Click to expand...

as I write this, Im also doing the first of the sanding of the Katana. Im also taking photos of every step of the way. I have received an email from a friend who also wants to see what Im talking about with a Interupted Quench that allows me to see the fist bending going the wrong way...He gave me an address of a free website place where Im going to start posting photos.

oh,,,when Im ready, I will start a whole new topic,,,and tell everyone all about this......this....war I have been on,,,,er,,,not a war,,,more like a...quest.

a quest to learn how to make a real Katana with a real water quench, old-school style.
 
DaQo'tah and all,
I took a class at JC Campbell with Wally where the teacher was Don Fogg assisted by Chuck Patrick. When Don and Chuck assisted the class hardening the blades the water was next to the forge and they had us practice moving the blade from the forge into the water. The point was to move the blade with as little movement as possible to the sides. The dunking was as you described.
One thing I saw was Chuck straightening my blade on the anvil with a hammer while still hot from the quench.
A couple of things that have not been mentioned. A layer of sand was placed in the forge to even the heat in the whole blade (1045). Some of the blades curved a lot and some vary little. My personal opinion was that the difference was more about how much the edge had been filed to the proper bevel before hardening.
Just my thoughts, Lynn
 
20feet from the fire to the quench tank??? remember blade needs to be taken from critical to less than 1000 in about a second on 10XX steels
Click to expand...
Maybe he's REALLY fast! :D Actually, if you go by how fast he can grind a katana blade, he probably CAN run that fast! :wow:
 
Lynn...

Katana type blades right?

What I have learned over the last week about the curve is this.

When I just had clay on the sides of the spine and had the spine edge scraped clean of clay, the curve was good, but not cool....

The clay always pops off for me as it's only hanging on a side of the blade.

NEXT BLADE: I wrapped the whole spine with clay, and did NOT scrape the spine edge. This time the curve was cool....but it could have been better

NEXT BLADE; I covered the spine in clay, wrapped the blade in wire, and re-covered the spine in clay again...The clay could not pop off too early in the quench, the quench took a lot longer as judged by the racket the blade made in the water, and the curve I got was HUGE and cool....
 
R APPLEBY said:
Congrats!!!!!!!!Glad it worked out for ya although I thought it is supposed to be third times a charm ;) :D . For your next project look into the brine it makes a big difference, straight water is to fast of a quench, the salt slows it down a bit and increases the boiling temp of the water and if you slow it down a bit more sqirt some dish soap in the quench. 20feet from the fire to the quench tank??? remember blade needs to be taken from critical to less than 1000 in about a second on 10XX steels, so wheres the pic of the project so far. If you're not havin fun you must be learning something new its all good. :)
Click to expand...

I dont know much but I know from my experience and technical texts, brine is faster quench than water. It is used to somewhat harden mid or low carbon steels. I think Mr Appleby is wrong. If the blade sometimes cracks in water than it WILL crack in brine IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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