Clay, Etching + obsevations..12/28 NEW PIC's

David Loukides

David Loukides

Joined
Mar 17, 2006
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1,363
Ok, I have to try to make sense of this. This is my first Real Attempt at using Clay in heat treating to create a Hamon
I put clay on a Forged to shape Blade of 1084.
The blade went thru my "normal process" prior to heat treatment and hand sanded to 600g.
My observation are Scratches reappear after you etch. I took it to what I thought was a clean 1k grit prior to etching.
Hard small silver lines follow the profile 1/8" from the top edge and some spots on the bottom.
I etched it in 30% ferric chloride to water for 15min 4X. Rubbing down in between. It removed enough metal that I can feel it with my finger.
Where I softened the ricasso showed up after the etching.
After Etching I used 1k grit and steel wool rub down Then Flitz paste wax to try to Bring out the contrast.
What am I Doing Right?
What am I Doing Wrong?
 
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I believe you left the blade in too long. The etch will "follow" scratches, and after awhile, you will start to go into the "grain' of the steel. I etch in a 5 parts water to one part FC, and usually only leave the blade in for a couple of minutes. Then take it out, wipe it down to see where you are, then if need be, back in the etch.It's a timely and intensive process-at least for me. One last thing, I sand my blades to at least as perfect a 1500 grit as I can before the etch. Hope that helps some.

Dave
 
Did you coat the entire blade before you made your marks with the clay? I had a problem like that onece had lines above the hamon line that showed up after I cleaned the blade. Coat the entire blade with a thin mixture of the clay/ satinite almost water thin and let it dry. It helped me with the lines a bit. Your problem may be someting else though.
 
Edit, I had mis-read your post. What you are seeing in alloy banding (lines running parallel to the spine/edge). Nothing to worry about and they look pretty cool.
 
loussharp1 said:
Ok,
What I will try,
Less Enchant/ And Time.
Higher grit
But What is alloy banding Don???
Click to expand...

Hell, I don't know :)

It's just a term we give this phenomenon. It probably doesn't have much to do with alloys, because 1084 doesn't have much. Excessive alloy banding might make a weaker blade, but a little wont hurt anything.

If you want it to not show, higher grit wont help, but less etching will show it less. It can be done away with in HT, but it doesn't bother me, so I never looked into it.
 
Dave - come to my garage some time in the next few days. I got a batch of blades that I am polishing to show hamon, and I can show you how to do it. Bring your blade, if you want.

1084 has too much manganese to get a great hamon, but you can do ok. the low manganese 1075 I got is killer, as is w1 or w2. I will give you some of these alloys to play with, too. I am in love with the 1075.

you need to know how and when to use things like pumice and rotten stone to enhance the area of transition, etc.

I got a well-know bladesmith who I don't want to mention so that no one thinks my mistakes are his fault to show me how to do some of this. I have been playing with it a lot for the last couple of months.

I leave town Wed. You could come by before then, I'll give you some w2 and w1 (I am keeping all of the low mn 1075 for myself)!

kc
 
Thanks AC,

I have quite a bit of 1975 that I got from Kelly Couples. Don't know if its low magnanese or not, but I think I'll clay it up next time. Who knows?

Dave
 
Sounds like alloy banding...can you post photos? I would like to how they look!
 
Here is a pic of the Alloy Banding.
Also I have some 1042 with .789MN is this considered low MN?

DSC_0002-11.jpg
 
I would say that is definitely allow banding.
Don H III talked me through a lot of my hamon work early on, and when I at first actually thought he was joking, his first advice to me was, "Ya' gotta play with it!"
I thought he was kidding - he wasn't.
There are so many factors from alloy to heat treating processes to steel thickness, quenchant, finishing techniques PRIOR to etching and finishing techniques AFTER etching, etc., etc that it is just really difficult to trouble shoot or critique someone else's hamons and etching/finishing practices.
Don was right, like is normal.
If you are not happy with what you have, try to remember the exact process that you did to create what you have.
Then, change it one step at a time, until you get the result you like from YOUR shop.
When I seek hamons with clay processing, I only take my steel to about 1200, then etch and clean repeatedly at about 30 seconds per etch until I get the depth of hamon I like.
Yours, here, looks like a pretty nice job to me.
I think it has great character.
Like said more than once here, really nice hamons are more dependable with 1095/W1/W2.
I like what you have.
I am now at the point where I enjoy making the hamons I now have.
It has taken me about 2 years to get to this point with repeated practice.
 
Many Thanks Karl,
It took me on and off 6 hours after heat treatment to produce this and I was pretty discouraged. I liked your work so I appreciate your opinion.
All Ideas will be tried and experimented with.
 
Dave, that blade looks FINE! What is the problem, Man??? :D

Also I have some 1042 with .789MN is this considered low MN?
Click to expand...
Not enough carbon at .42 for a good blade and .789 is high Mn. The reason I like W2 so much, is Mn is around .20 +/- a little.
 
The 1075 I have has about .28 Manganese, which is why it works so well. (its not really 1075, its a custom smelt that Aldo got part of with lower-than-normal manganese. 1075 through 1084 usually have above .7%, so this steel would technically be called "high-carbon, waterhardening steel" but no one knows what you are talking about when you call it that).
We have w2 if we can just break these chunks down to blade size.

1095 would work better than 1084, the 1095 is usually around .4% manganese.

the low manganese 1075, w1, or w2 will always be best though.

kc
 
Hi Don,
My wife said the same thing. I Guess what I thought I was going to get was different than what I got. With time and thought I should figure out what I want and how to get it.
If that makes any sense.
 
Hey Dave-

My gut reaction was, "Dang, you really etched the hell right outta that!" ;)

I think it looks neat... but if it's not what you were going for, then you're not happy.

Not to toot my own horn about it, but did you see this thread? This is how I do it on my high end stuff. You can do it much faster and with coarser stuff... but this is one way to go about it. :)

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765305
 
After seeing the thread Nick I have to ask myself what have I gotten into this time.
But no pain no Gain.
My fingers already have a healthy dose of arthritis.
I either have to make some better tools or find some good arthritis meds or Both.
I like your finished product. Some of the pic's look 3D.
 
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