Hmm, I'll be sure to add some books to my current list (that is a smarter idea, though right now I lack the funds), do you have any in mind to start with? To begin with, I'll have my Bokken which I can have made to be close to the weight of that Katana so when I graduate to the real deal I'll already be fairly conditioned (I believe proper Kendo practice is to train with a Bokken more so than a Blade until one learns proper form and is granted permission to move up to actual cutting, plus it's all-around safer).
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Clay-Tempered Hamon Question
- Thread starter KageKaiju
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Hmm, I'll be sure to add some books to my current list (that is a smarter idea, though right now I lack the funds), do you have any in mind to start with? To begin with, I'll have my Bokken which I can have made to be close to the weight of that Katana so when I graduate to the real deal I'll already be fairly conditioned (I believe proper Kendo practice is to train with a Bokken more so than a Blade until one learns proper form and is granted permission to move up to actual cutting, plus it's all-around safer).
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It's nearly a toss up between the two steels. The only thing I really can add about Cheness is. If looks aren't the utmost important. The price tag is worth it. Plus they do have a clay tempered 9260 Kaze katana. As David said, the claying process does produce a harder edge for better cutting. But ancient Katanas also used weaker steel in the 1040-1070 range. Meaning they had to clay temper the katana to get the edge about 1070-1095. And it naturally had a softer spine. Doing 1095 with a tempered harder edge. Would most likely produce a sword that was too brittle. Even in the hands of a master, let alone a novice.
1060/5160/9260 have a good carbon content of 60%. Which is an almost perfect balance of hard & soft for a beginner. And cheaper for the cost of production & polishing. That plus my 9260 has a added kick of silicate to keep the blade flexible even under stress. And luckily not as bendable as most windlass swords.
Post pics here in this thread, once you get what you want. Good luck!
P.S. I don't have the upper strength Kohai999 suggested. And I haven't sent the sword flying. But as good rule of thumb. Do exercise, it does help. Don't !! let anyone around you at least 30 feet in all directions. Get a good wood stand for Gaza cutting. And clear away all hard items around you, unlike me
1060/5160/9260 have a good carbon content of 60%. Which is an almost perfect balance of hard & soft for a beginner. And cheaper for the cost of production & polishing. That plus my 9260 has a added kick of silicate to keep the blade flexible even under stress. And luckily not as bendable as most windlass swords.
Post pics here in this thread, once you get what you want. Good luck!P.S. I don't have the upper strength Kohai999 suggested. And I haven't sent the sword flying. But as good rule of thumb. Do exercise, it does help. Don't !! let anyone around you at least 30 feet in all directions. Get a good wood stand for Gaza cutting. And clear away all hard items around you, unlike me
It's nearly a toss up between the two steels. The only thing I really can add about Cheness is. If looks aren't the utmost important. The price tag is worth it. Plus they do have a clay tempered 9260 Kaze katana. As David said, the claying process does produce a harder edge for better cutting. But ancient Katanas also used weaker steel in the 1040-1070 range. Meaning they had to clay temper the katana to get the edge about 1070-1095. And it naturally had a softer spine. Doing 1095 with a tempered harder edge. Would most likely produce a sword that was too brittle. Even in the hands of a master, let alone a novice.
1060/5160/9260 have a good carbon content of 60%. Which is an almost perfect balance of hard & soft for a beginner. And cheaper for the cost of production & polishing. That plus my 9260 has a added kick of silicate to keep the blade flexible even under stress. And luckily not as bendable as most windlass swords.
P.S. I don't have the upper strength Kohai999 suggested. And I haven't sent the sword flying. But as good rule of thumb. Do exercise, it does help. Don't !! let anyone around you at least 30 feet in all directions. Get a good wood stand for Gaza cutting. And clear away all hard items around you, unlike me
Sweet! I don't plan on buying the real deal anytime soon, I simply wanted to do my research and start learning about the proper metals and spend some time educating myself before I go spending money. I do exercise lol Insanity being my favorite so I wouldn't say I'm like superhero fit but I am decently fit. And yup, a sword is no different than a gun, take proper safety precautions at all times and think before acting. I plan on doing a lot more research, not just about the blade metal and whatnot but also about the full Katana as well. Knowledge is power after all XD
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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P.S. I don't have the upper strength Kohai999 suggested. And I haven't sent the sword flying. But as good rule of thumb. Do exercise, it does help. Don't !! let anyone around you at least 30 feet in all directions. Get a good wood stand for Gaza cutting. And clear away all hard items around you, unlike me
You are also not swinging a 3 lb sword.
Beginners have a tendency to try to "muscle" the sword.....a 3 lb. katana will induce fatigue very quickly....doesn't sound like 8 oz. will make much of a difference, right?
After 100 swings, it will feel like an extra 15 lbs.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Kohai999 is correct, and I would defer to his wisdom. Ny 2bs 7oz sword is lighter. Than a raptor that weighs 2lbs 9oz, 2lbs 11oz & 2lbs 15oz. (the three I found) It all adds up & train accordingly. I was not able to do serious training as Kohai mentions. I was only a back yard cutter.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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It is not wisdom, will be the first to say I am not wise.
Of the many mistakes that can be made in sword study, I have probably erred in over half of them. That is experience, not wisdom.
The model that I had posted the second hyperlink to is a Nanbochuko version. It is a 30" blade, wide and long point(o-kissaki), that is the one that is 2 lbs 15 oz.
Unless the user is over 6' tall and very strong, it is not for the beginner. That is what I was indicating to the op.
As with all things, "serious" is a matter of approach, intent and focus. It is entirely possible for a backyard cutter to become competent in basics with nothing more than a book or two and some DVD's, or even studying YouTube videos of masters cutting....as long as the intent and attention are consistent.
It is all in how you see, how you emulate, how you consider, how you think and ultimately, how you move.
The tools used are less important in the beginning. A well balanced, properly weighted sword is much more important than how the sword looks, or what steel it is made from, as long as it is of a reasonable quality when you start.
In our Ryu, a beginning student will have to use a bokken for at least a few classes until they can show some degree of control and understanding of the basic mechanics. This is for their protection as well as ours. It is far too easy to crack a saya(scabbard) drawing even iaito improperly....this costs money, and it is embarrassing in front of a class of fellow students...the idea is to build up to proficiency, as I have only seen two "natural born cutters" in 15 years of "serious" study.
Go slow and steady.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
With regards to the steel, I will echo what has already been said, plus, for the steels mentioned, if you decide you want a softer, tougher spine, you can temper back the spine on your blade if it is TH. This is easily done by a novice. My opinion, if you decide to get a more expensive blade in the future, is to find a bladesmith who can incorporate lower bainite into the blade during the heat treatment.
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L6 too is amazing thanks to amazing people like Howard Clark & Hanwei. But IMHO too expensive for non traditional materials. If you didn't have the chance to get a Howard Clark L6. When he was still kind of unknown, working with Bugei. You sorely missed out on a diamond in the rough. I wish I had the money when they were there, but didn't have 2,000 for L6. I could have retailed it for way more.
Kohai999
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L6 too is amazing thanks to amazing people like Howard Clark & Hanwei. But IMHO too expensive for non traditional materials. If you didn't have the chance to get a Howard Clark L6. When he was still kind of unknown, working with Bugei. You sorely missed out on a diamond in the rough. I wish I had the money when they were there, but didn't have 2,000 for L6. I could have retailed it for way more.
I cut last night at the dojo with both of my L6 katana, one is a full boat through tempered model that I was fortunate enough to get from Bailey Bradshaw, MS when he was still producing cutlery. It cut like a dream, is nice and well balance, but pushing towards 2 lbs 12 oz. The other is the Preying Mantis by Hanwei, with Fred Lohman dragon furniture and navy blue silk wrap......I HATED the furniture that originally came on the mantis, but now it looks nice.
For some reason, the mantis doesn't cut quite as well, but it holds a wonderfully sharp edge and still does the trick.
When you have been training for a while, very subtle issues become readily apparent. I do like the L6 blades very much, especially by Howard. My Sensei is selling his fully mounted, with antique Edo period tsuba, shinogi zukuri Howard Clark L6 katana for $7,000.....so you are right about the price back in the day!
Here is a photo of the tsuka on the L6 swords, the wooden sticks above the swords are a flame striped maple jo that Bailey gave me as a gift between two students of budo, and an octagonal Ipe wood jo no longer available, so I don't use it in training anyomore:
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Hey guys, I just did some more research and digging and stumbled across something that's confusing me. Spring Steel is the way I want to go, for the obvious reasons, but I also saw a 1095 Carbon Steel blade that was folded multiple times to create the Hada, which is purely for aesthetic purposes. From what I read, folding doesn't necessarily do anything but create that aesthetic effect, and I was wondering if that's possible on 5160 or 9260 Spring Steel? I ask because I read how hard Spring Steel is to make and how difficult it can be, and I can only imagine how much of a pain it will be to fold it numerous times since it cools rapidly and is anything but malleable.
So, is getting Spring Steel folded possible and will it create a Hada? Or is 1095 folded a better route? This is strictly for aesthetics, so it's not important and it's just a question out of curiosity, not something I plan on getting anytime soon. More like me just asking for more knowledge.
So, is getting Spring Steel folded possible and will it create a Hada? Or is 1095 folded a better route? This is strictly for aesthetics, so it's not important and it's just a question out of curiosity, not something I plan on getting anytime soon. More like me just asking for more knowledge.
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I have heard of spring steel being harder to fold. The nature of the steel could force layer split apart. And there are no bonuses to folding 5160,9260 or 1095 on it's self. Except to create hada pattern in a modern sword. There is a good possibility that you will end up with a sword of lesser quality. That is going to cost more in the long run too.
Steel mills produce better quality steel, than most ancient blacksmith's could ever dream of. It's mainly why we (first time budget buyers & average Joe's) only ever talk about 1 of 3 katana styles. Maru, Kobuse & Damascus sword lamination. when there are 18+ styles of lamination. We don't need the rest because of technology. Though they remain historically Important.
YouTube is a great source for History channel documentaries on swords. As well as other sword related videos. And read all you can about them, till you can't read anymore. I think you need more personal self education. To figure out exactly what you want and need, & willing to ignore. I picked out my edged weapons on my own, buy educating myself. I didn't have Blade Forum experts to rely on. An I'm not an expert either, just better educated on this topic than some.
Steel mills produce better quality steel, than most ancient blacksmith's could ever dream of. It's mainly why we (first time budget buyers & average Joe's) only ever talk about 1 of 3 katana styles. Maru, Kobuse & Damascus sword lamination. when there are 18+ styles of lamination. We don't need the rest because of technology. Though they remain historically Important.
YouTube is a great source for History channel documentaries on swords. As well as other sword related videos. And read all you can about them, till you can't read anymore. I think you need more personal self education. To figure out exactly what you want and need, & willing to ignore. I picked out my edged weapons on my own, buy educating myself. I didn't have Blade Forum experts to rely on. An I'm not an expert either, just better educated on this topic than some.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Sorry man, I tried yesterday, but couldn't get decent shots. You can see what the basic blade looks like for the Praying Mantis here:
http://casiberia.com/product/praying-mantis-katana/sh2359
Sometimes in the heat treat, you get alloy banding that has an attractive hada-like appearance.....it is present on my Howard Clark 1086 Wakizashi and also on the CAS Iberia Praying Mantis....hopefully these photos illustrate what I mean:
This is a shot of the banding on the Mantis
The Clark....this is a fairly expensive hybrid polish.....so it is is much more of a window into the steel. The polisher has since retired....he did a very good job.
I agree with Sam Claymore....OP needs some SELF education.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Beautiful swords Kohai, just beautiful. By the way, if you see me error. Don't hesitate to correct me. (you too Sam)I may ask to site a reference. But I won't have a melt down over a disagreement:thumbup: As I admit, I am no expert.
Kane, as much as I like to helpful at times. I don't want to guide you in a direction that is wrong for you, tough I think it is right. And then a year later you're griping at me for it. Because you let me decide what was right for you. You don't seem to have narrowed down your choices yet. Most guys come in asking ESEE vs Becker or CRK vs CRK. They already have weeded through what they are willing to pay. The quality they expect for the price. Researched the history of the companies etc. And their conclusions have got them 90+ % of the way there. They just need a tie breaker, or more reason to push them to what the want.
Reread over my last post. Late night posting makes my lousy grammer worse
:thumbdn:
Kane, as much as I like to helpful at times. I don't want to guide you in a direction that is wrong for you, tough I think it is right. And then a year later you're griping at me for it. Because you let me decide what was right for you. You don't seem to have narrowed down your choices yet. Most guys come in asking ESEE vs Becker or CRK vs CRK. They already have weeded through what they are willing to pay. The quality they expect for the price. Researched the history of the companies etc. And their conclusions have got them 90+ % of the way there. They just need a tie breaker, or more reason to push them to what the want.
Reread over my last post. Late night posting makes my lousy grammer worse
:thumbdn:
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Fancy that, eh?
Beautiful swords Kohai, just beautiful. By the way, if you see me error. Don't hesitate to correct me. (you too Sam)I may ask to site a reference. But I won't have a melt down over a disagreement:thumbup: As I admit, I am no expert.
Kane, as much as I like to helpful at times. I don't want to guide you in a direction that is wrong for you, tough I think it is right. And then a year later you're griping at me for it. Because you let me decide what was right for you. You don't seem to have narrowed down your choices yet. Most guys come in asking ESEE vs Becker or CRK vs CRK. They already have weeded through what they are willing to pay. The quality they expect for the price. Researched the history of the companies etc. And their conclusions have got them 90+ % of the way there. They just need a tie breaker, or more reason to push them to what the want.
Reread over my last post. Late night posting makes my lousy grammer worse
The wrap job on the Praying Mantis is pretty nice, and I do like Lohman's steel dragon koshirae very much....but the swords themselves would never really fall into the beautiful category compared to Nihonto made of tamehagane which is in a whole different class....but the beauty for me is in the cutting....not the aesthetics AS much.
ALL the swords currently owned are cutters, save for the Clark wakizashi which was given an exceptional polish and then retired....and they cut very well....specifically, there is a CAS Iberia Shinto Elite that is set aside for tournament cutting....it's one superb cutter, and it has yet to bend, knock on wood.
The swords that did not cut well were either re-sold or given as gifts to very good friends.
I'm not in the habit of commenting on minor misunderstandings, moreso on the major issues....simply because in general, there is vastly too much bad information out there...which is something that led Mecha to comment on the hamon ratios....as western knifemakers have a very bad tendency to push the demarcation line WAY too high up on the blade....and if there is a disagreement, would be happy to direct you to the source material that I would be referencing. Your grammar is just fine, this is the internets....it's a whole different language.
Stay safe, and
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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Even if you can meet the strength guidelines Kohai suggests, swordwork of any kind is a very different kind of strength. You can be able to bench the world and still not have the grip strength, and more importantly the grip stamina that is needed. A 3lb katana is a different animal entirely from a 3lb western sword, too-I recieved a cheness Kaze with no bo-hi as partial payment for making a karambit for someone-it's a 2-1/2lb sword, but requires more grip and wrist strength than my nearly 3 lb yanmao dao (i know that's heavy, but I made it to suit a guy who swings a 3lb hammer all week
) the dao has a solid steel pommel, so the POB is further towards the hilt than a katana.Incidentally the Kaze feels more like a real shinken than anything else inexpensive that I've handled as far as tsuka dimensions and geometry...and I got to see it in person before I accepted it. The fittings are scruffy, and the tsuba is awful to the point of needing replacement, but the feel is good.
I second Kohai's suggestion of a raptor, and spend some time with bokken before you mess with live steel. Shinken are not forgiving, and better you whack yourself/ceiling/cat/roommate with oak than the alternative.
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Sorry man, I tried yesterday, but couldn't get decent shots. You can see what the basic blade looks like for the Praying Mantis here:
http://casiberia.com/product/praying-mantis-katana/sh2359
Sometimes in the heat treat, you get alloy banding that has an attractive hada-like appearance.....it is present on my Howard Clark 1086 Wakizashi and also on the CAS Iberia Praying Mantis....hopefully these photos illustrate what I mean:
This is a shot of the banding on the Mantis
The Clark....this is a fairly expensive hybrid polish.....so it is is much more of a window into the steel. The polisher has since retired....he did a very good job.
I agree with Sam Claymore....OP needs some SELF education.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
The 1080 steels do have some lovely grain to them:
this is DH'd 1084, etched-it tends to look more like wootz for whatever reason.A friend of mine has two Howard Clarkes-(!!!)- they are really amazing to handle.
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