Cliff - Aircat knife tests ?

[FWO]

Cliff;
Have you tested the Aircat Knives By Dwaine Carillo ? They look to be heavy duty but before I drop a large sum on one, what are your thoughts, or have you used them ?

Be well
Floyd

 

[Cliff Stamp]

No I have not used them and would have no use for a heavy use knife with a hollow ground blade out of a high carbon stainless steel, especially ones with as many speed holes as those feature :

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/airkat_apache_14.htm

Look at the two large scallops in the middle portion of the primary blade grind. Now imagine the blade hitting something hard right at that point, or the edge exposed to lateral strains at that point.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

While I find the design of that knife to be far less than desirable for my uses and preferences, I do like the "sheath system".

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Some of them look a bit cramped/crowded to me, like this :

http://www.redcanyonknives.com/Image Expert Images/Joel Pirella/Survital-sheath.jpg

Rather than jamming evertyhing onto one rig, I would rather have a more compartmentalized design, with a clean primary scabbard.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Check out the grooves on the spine extending into the handle, talk about uncomfortable during use!!

I was browing more pics of these knives online, they are designed to "sell". All those grooves, wierd angles set in, sharp cornered stress risers. NOt my kind of knife for sure.

I like my knives simple. All they ahve to do is fit my hand well, cut or chop and stand up to any reasonable use I have for it.

Given the handle apperance, I would father use a Hibben Fantasy knife for hard use. I consider them in about the same class, no matter what the price.

The only way I would buy a knife like this is if some group of high speed low drag spec-ops super trooper SEAL Ranger Delta Force gs9 DeaTH sTALKER SAS ahrd core extreme killer endorsed it.

Actually, if it is just going to sit in a cabinet and look "cool", then I am sure it will work just fine.

 

[FWO]

Thanks for your opinions, I see a box of band aids, or a suture rig near my body parts when I look at them.Sitting in a drawer is about the logic I thought might come to mind. Maybe a collector of neo fantasy, fifty years from now.

Be well
Floyd

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Check out the grooves on the spine extending into the handle...

Yeah, the grips look funky, so do the blades and sheaths, at least it is all consistent anyway.

Some of the handles look so small and tapered the blade looks like a spear point. Ref :

http://www.tadgear.com/edged tools/images for pages/scorpion-sp.jpg


I wish makers would have blurbs about the design of their knives, I would love to see the background on some of them.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

That would make a pretty cool movie prop. I can see a Predator using something like that.

I would love to see the background on some of them.

I think the knife industry is so into the "tactical" movement that they look for high speed types.

If I was running a knife company I would look for carpenters, meat packers, dock workers and the like to design and test knives.

My knives may not look great or sell well, but they would work well for their intended purpose.

 

[Chiro75]

It's interesting when people trash a knife without touching it. I don't own an Airkat and don't have an interest in owning any of the current offerings, but in my personal experience with knives, I have been surprised by the comfort of what look like awkward shaped handles, and disappointed by things that "look" really ergonomic.

I think it's extremely unfair to the maker of these knives to trash his work without any real world, firsthand experience from anyone who posted here. I thought this forum was called "Knife Reviews & Testing" not "Speculations Based On No Firsthand Experience."

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If I was running a knife company I would look for carpenters, meat packers, dock workers and the like to design and test knives.

Many makers and manufacturers do just that, they also tend to make fairly solid knives for obvious reasons.

It's interesting when people trash a knife without touching it.

Of course knifetester is free to praise one of your knives from a picture, but drawing on the same knowledge to form a negative opinion you condem. Biased, of course not.

I thought this forum was called "Knife Reviews & Testing" not "Speculations Based On No Firsthand Experience."

The comments I made were based on using that steel in that type of grind (ATS-34 class high carbon stainless with a hollow grind) even down to the particulars of the scallops in the primary edge (saw them on a Valiant Golok), which I have seen cause premature failures on numerous blades because of the tendancy for those steels to fracture and that grind to not provide the necessary support to prevent propogation into the primary grind.

Similar all the cutouts and such leave sharp edges everywhere all over the blade which impart stress risers everywhere, give the blade parts to catch on, fill in with debris and make using the spine as an ergonomic aid impossible. Not to mention the primary grind is fairly low and a lot of the blade is left at full stock which is going to reduce cutting efficiency.

With regards to the sheath, all the little knobs and danglers will get caught on sticks in the bush, and I would not stick a compass out there where it would likely get impacted, and the sharpeners and firestarters tore off when caught, as well as in general I would not para wrap a sheath due to abrasion on the cord, unless I wanted to just reinforce the sheath of course. I have had all of these things happen in use which is why I like my sheaths clean and simple with nothing to catch on, tear off, or otherwise get lost.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

Of course knifetester is free to praise one of your knives from a picture, but drawing on the same knowledge to form a negative opinion you condem. Biased, of course not.

There is a difference. You've passed judgment on a knife already without ever touching one firsthand. That could have a negative effect on the sales of the maker, and it's insulting to the maker. For someone to say "That looks like a nice knife..." is one thing. To point out all sorts of theoretical problems on a knife you've never touched is another matter altogether.

I agree with some of your obervations on the sheath system, but you made some pretty decisive comments about how you EXPECT this knife to perform BEFORE you have ever touched it (did you say bias?). These knives and sheaths are not my style at all, but I can appreciate the tremendous amount of work that I know Duane puts into his work.

I have no problems with honest opinions, but when the opinions are negative you have to think before you type. For someone to say "Hey, I think that LOOKS like a nice knife" then they are expressing their opinion. If someone says "Guys, this knife cuts like a lightsaber, and it breaks concrete rocks, too!" before they've even touched the knife would be a little weird. This is pretty much the same, only in reverse. You've made distinct performance judgments on a knife you've never touched. Yeah, you've used other ATS-34 knives before. So, does that mean ALL ATS-34 knives perform the same?

 

[Chiro75]

Oh, and Cliff, thanks for the negative rep point. :yawn:

But of course if it had been praise you would have never uttered a word. -Cliff

If you can't tell the difference between trashing someones work sight unseen and saying "Nice knife" then your problems are deeper than what I can help you with.

 

[T.K.C.]

I happen to REALLY like Dwaine Carrillo's knives!!! I want one of his folders REAL bad!!!

 

[knifetester]

Of course knifetester is free to praise one of your knives from a picture. . .

In fact I did so just today, and have in the past as well. I think Chiro makes some really nice looking knives, clean designs.

It's interesting when people trash a knife without touching it.. ."Speculations Based On No Firsthand Experience."

I have used enough knives (easily hundreds) and have a small exposure to material science (barely adequate layman knowledge) to know what works for me. Yeah, I can look at a knife and know, for certain, that it will not work for my uses.

People get on Cliff for "extrapolating". Do you think Airkat has come up with a magic heat treat that makes ATS34 tougher than a tool steel? Their hollow grind more suited for extreme work than any other hollow grind?

Cutting performance, and to a large extent durability, are based on cross section and geometry. No amount of "looking cool" can change that.

So, if you are familiar with certain aspects of performance based on materials, geometry, etc, you can mak vey acurate predictions of how a certain knife will perform based just on specs and design.

Ergonomics is a field of scientific study, as a Chiropractic physician I am sure you are very familiar with the bio-mechanical aspects of it. Yeah, I can look at grooves running on th spine of the handle and tell for certain the handle would not be comfortable in my use of knife.

Just like I can look at a pair of size 28 waist jeans and know for certain that my fat butt is not fiting in them. No amount of "think thin" is gonna change that.

So when I see a knife with Grooves, scallops, holes, ridges and crap all over it, yeah I know it would suck to use and would never waste my hard earned meager dollars on it.

I still think you make a vey nice looking knife though Chiro

 

[Chiro75]

Thanks, Knifetester! Case in point: I have medium sized hands. I thought and still think that Strider has blocky-looking, pretty clunky handles on their knives. I am a recent owner of a PT and it's super comfortable. I had the AR for a week in the passaround and it was great once my hand got used to it, which blew my mind. I don't know. Just seems reasonable to wait and actually handle the knife before passing a negative judgment on one.

 

[Josh Muller]

I have no problems with honest opinions, but when the opinions are negative you have to think before you type. For someone to say "Hey, I think that LOOKS like a nice knife" then they are expressing their opinion. If someone says "Guys, this knife cuts like a lightsaber, and it breaks concrete rocks, too!" before they've even touched the knife would be a little weird. This is pretty much the same, only in reverse. You've made distinct performance judgments on a knife you've never touched. Yeah, you've used other ATS-34 knives before. So, does that mean ALL ATS-34 knives perform the same?

essentially yes. if they are ground to a similar thickness, with a similar grind, at the same hardness - chances are they will perform in a very similar manner.

will two knives of completely different geometry made of the same steel perform the same (given the same hardness?) - no. to that effect, it is possible that cliff is totally wrong in the generally strength of the blade with its various added grinds. it is also possible that dwaine uses a heat treating protocol that is very different then other manifacturers, giving the ats-34 that he is using properties that dont exist in other other manifacturers knives made of ats-34.

an example of where the assumption that the knife will break under certain stresses being incorrect - if the knife is 1/4" thick with those given added grinds (the scallops etc) vs. a blade that is 1/8" thick with the same basic additions - the 1/4" will be able to take more stress and shock before suffering damage then then the 1/8" will. but it will break in the same manner, as the basic structure will focus the stress into specific spots.

cliff is basing his opinion off of the feature set that is shown on aircats knives, and on the steel used, as well as the type of blade grind.

you are correct in that he shouldnt say that dwaines knife will break under specific tolerences without first performing the tests himself, or seeing/verifying that it will do so via a reliable source. however, he can say "it will probably do this" "because i've seen very similar things do this" "under these circumstances"

and be fine. because he's basing his opinion off of experiences, and deducing probably outcomes when similar situations and materials are present. not just random comments like "concrete rocks" wich dont exixt. there are however rocks in concrete . though i suppose you could make a ball of concrete look like a rock making everything i've just said moot .... anyways...

 

[Josh Muller]

in regards to my own personal opinion of dwains knives -

extremely high quality. the grinds are near perfect, and the overal aesthetic presentation is carried throughout the design quite well.

i wouldnt want any of the features he puts on his knives personally, only because i'd never use any of them. however, no one else makes a knife like he does. that is worth quite a bit.

i'd prefer a sheath where i can immediately index where everything is, wich is why i'd prefer a simplified version of the sheath's he makes available, but i can see why having so many features available on the sheath is valuable, in that it will probably be the one peice of gear you still have on you if you tumble down a hill in the woods.

 

[knifetester]

Chiro,
You make some interesting points, thank you for the livesly discourse. It is only when one's assertions are challenged, subjected to the crucible of "peer review" so to speak that they can be meaningfully examined.

Just seems reasonable to wait and actually handle the knife before passing a negative judgment on one.

In many cases, yes. However, this is a very extreme design, as are the rest of Airkat's. I have a paradigm of "form follows function" in regards to knife design, and thus favor clean designs like your own.

I don't need to hold onto a moving saw blade to it would not be comfortable, same with knives with grooves running in the spine. Perhaps I have marshmallow soft wimpy hands, but I know that certain things are uncomfortable, and Airkats' knives are the embodiment of those things.

Yes, I have been suprised by some designs, but it is rare, and never with designs as fantansy like as these.

These knives are obviously designed for looks, which is fine for many people. I am sure it will sell well. They are not for me though, of that I am certain.

That could have a negative effect on the sales of the maker, and it's insulting to the maker.

That is a valid point. I see hundreds of designs I don't like on a daily basis, and usually don't take the time to comment on them, almost never in fact.

I did so here because of the extreme fantasy design, basically the total opposite of what I consider good knife designs. As well, considering all the fan fare Dwaine gets, and the general insignificance that most hold my lowly opinion, I have no trouble giving you my honest opinion. Truth be told, my writing is actually quite tactful and reserved compared to how I truly feel about most of his designs.

Different flavors for different folks.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I have been suprised by some designs, but it is rare, and never with designs as fantansy like as these.

I have been surprised with knives on occasion even after using them. I have in fact been turned around on some knives (both ways) after a long period of extended use for many reasons. Either I got a lot better method wise, or got a lot tougher grip wise, or my perspectives on use changed or I just got more experience with different knives.

You can always be wrong, using a knife doesn't change that as since you continue to learn your posts will change accordingly. Contention is the benefit of posting on a public forum, someone, including the maker can some in and say "Hey, I see where you are coming from, however I have addressed this by XXX." you should really try them out.

For example if you go way back on rec.knives, Mike Swaim and a number of others made comments about a fillet knife brand made of 440A. The guy offering them came in, and didn't attack anyone, just talked about it, gave some info, even gave one to Mike to use who did an evaluation.

Turns out the steel wasn't exactly 440A and performed well. Everyone was happy and we all learned something - and Alvin still hated stainless and would have reground the knife because to him it was an axe.

Other people of course have come in and attacked Alvin and Chas for comments they made, some of them even physically challenge them or make threats, Chas usually accepts and trys to set up a time and place and then the guys run away, or Alvin just beats them without mercy with the ASM database he has in his head.

That is a valid point. I see hundreds of designs I don't like on a daily basis, and usually don't take the time to comment on them, almost never in fact.

Most people do, this should not be the case though, it is one of the main underlying reasons for product overhyping. If you accept positives then you have to accept negatives under the same reasoning.

For someone to say "That looks like a nice knife..." is one thing. To point out all sorts of theoretical problems on a knife you've never touched is another matter altogether.

People go a lot further with praise than just aesthetics, a lot will comment on handle ergonomics, blade profile, steel choices, and so on talking about why the knife would be well suited for them, it is trivial to turn up masses of these posts.

Yeah, you've used other ATS-34 knives before. So, does that mean ALL ATS-34 knives perform the same?

There are variances, the hardness usually changes a point or so from one knife to another, but what would be required to make the above functional from a durability point of view would make it stronger and tougher than any other tool steel I have used.

This would also not address the other problems such as the dangly bits on the sheath, the speed holes in the blade, the extreme taper on the spear like knife handle and so forth. Plus the general action of the grind, which for example wedges in deep cuts.

-Cliff

 

[Chiro75]

People go a lot further with praise than just aesthetics, a lot will comment on handle ergonomics, blade profile, steel choices, and so on talking about why the knife would be well suited for them, it is trivial to turn up masses of these posts.

If you can tell that much based on a picture then you have more psychic abilities than I have. That doesn't excuse the fact that you've passed judgment on a knife without ever having touched it. Hopefully Dwaine never sends a knife to you for "evaluation" because you already have the review written. You just need some +/- figures and you'll be all set. To paraphrase Bill O'Reilly, "You can't justify bad behavior by pointing out others' bad behavior."

It's very easy for people to trashtalk a knifemaker like this. Armchair critics are interesting because they are full of commentary on things they frequently know very little about. It takes 30 seconds to hack out an email that points out all of your opinions, for what they're worth, while it takes the maker hours and hours and hours of work to develop his product, make it, market it, etc. If the knives are complete pieces of crap, I doubt that Dwaine would continue making them that way. They are certainly different, but if people didn't do things differently and thin outside the box, everything would look like an Endura :barf: I say give the guy a fair chance before you destroy his life's work. That's not too much to ask, is it? Maybe we should get a plane ticket and hotel fair for Cliff to next year's Blade Show and he can walk up and down all of the aisles and point out everyone's flaws in the same manner he does it here. Maybe we should collect extra for bodyguard service, too.

Did you guys email Dwaine to ask him about his knives' design before you threw your opinions out there? Doubtful.