Cliffstamp's View of 3v - Agree?

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Blain

Blain

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This is what he has to say about it, I guess he is not too impressed with it. States that the toughness is no better than a low carbon steel like 5160, yet is significantly harder to sharpen to the point of being an issue.

3V, when hardened sensibly, is fairly tough as it will have < 0.6% carbon in solution and has a very small amount (<5%) of alloy carbide. I have a couple of very nice 3V knives and they will resist chipping well, however I do not like it for a large blade steel at all.

The problem is that it isn't tougher than a simple mid-carbon steel like 5160 and even if it was that would not matter for general working as those steels are tough enough (in most cases) to let damage be by deformation rather than fracture. Thus making a knife even tougher, say out of 4340, would not be of benefit aside from extremes as in you wanted to hit the knife with a hammer for example.

Why don't I like 3V? In larger knives they simply don't blunt by slow wear, or if they do it is rare because wood is dirty. The edge blunts from hitting the dirt and 3V impacts just as much as a simple steel in those cases. It is no better than them in resisting such deformation. However when you go to sharpen it that vanadium carbide shows up and it demands higher end stones, more coarse stones, power sharpening, more time - or some combination of all of that.

The question then becomes - why are you paying more money for a steel which has no improved performance and is harder to maintain?

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Now to be clear I am looking at 3V compared to ideal choices, if you compare it to silly things like D2, ATS-34, etc. for larger blades then sure, it is great.

However there are more knives than larger parangs, and for some choices it is a decent blade steel. The common heavy duty utility/tactical style knives for example.
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It looks like his criticisms are about this particular application of the steel rather than the steel itself.
 
I don't have any experience with 3V. I respect Cliff's opinions. Assuming what he said is correct and from a practical point of view, I tend to agree that with larger blades (choppers), 3V may not be the ideal choice because they are a lot more trouble to sharpen for me. But with a smaller fixed blade, say 4-6", this size of knife is not hard to sharpen on diamond stones by hand and would be very appealing to me.
 
Opinions about Cliff's reviews vary considerably. I've always liked them. In just casual experience as a user I think 3V performs very well in a big knife. I also don't share the low opinion of D2 and ATS 34 so I guess I'm a dinosaur
 
He makes many assumptions in his opinion, I'd take this opinion of his with a grain of salt.

Prove it through testing and providing results, whether completely scientific or not something to base his opinion on would benefit him in substantiating what he claims.

While my highly informal personal experience with 3v and simple spring steels is my only basis for my opinion at least it's based in reality. Using both side by side 3v resists deformation better than spring steels. I've used both at various Rockwell hardnesses.

Edit to add: Deformation resistance isn't the only attribute difference I've noticed, I'd add corrosion resistance, edge retention and overall apex stability.
 
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The better question is : Why people should give a fxxk on Cliff Stamp obviously bias opinion :rolleyes:

Dan Keffeler made quite number of Waki from CPM-3V with thin edge and chop tree down and he said CPM-3V is great for larger blade, that is enough for me to believe that 3V is great steel for larger knife.

There are also many of competent makers who have done testing with this steel and they are impressed with it like D.Winkler, Nathan, Tendick etc. Even CRK do use this steel for their largest knife...
 
shqxk said:
The better question is : Why people should give a fxxk on Cliff Stamp obviously bias opinion :rolleyes:

Dan Keffeler made quite number of Waki from CPM-3V with thin edge and chop tree down and he said CPM-3V is great for larger blade, that is enough for me to believe that 3V is great steel for larger knife.

There are also many of competent makers who have done testing with this steel and they are impressed with it like D.Winkler, Nathan, Tendick etc. Even CRK do use this steel for their largest knife...
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Exactly,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...mhpl7g&usg=AFQjCNFl_6cc30irq9mKs8RZWcaCK3pFoQ

Look how poorly 3v performs.
 
There's a very good reason why he was banned here. He lives in his own corner of the knife world where he can make sure only those who believe every word he says can interact with him.
 
I believe Cliff has a doctorate in nuclear physics and has used his background as a scientist to do extensive and rigorous testing on blades. His tendancy to not tolerate misinformation and to frankly state his positions and why has made him unpopular with folks who can't stand to hear anything but glowing praise for their duper steel of the month. (Clearly it's him who is biased and not the mob that can't tolerate or rationally process any criticism.)

I guess from that perspective the baseless attacks that come out every time his name is mentioned aren't surprising.

It seems like there is a disturbing lack of basic reading comprehension or that a bunch of projecting takes place whenever people react to things he's written. Plus everyone is soooo brave attacking someone who can't respond or defend himself here, classy. :thumbdn:

In the quote above, it appears someone asked the man his opinion on 3v for choppers. He said he doesn't prefer it and laid out the reasons why. The response seems perfectly rational to me, but wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying a chopper in that steel at all. He didn't say is was a bad steel, didn't say it performs poorly, didn't insult anyone's mother, etc... But hell, let's all crucify him for it anyway :confused:
 
Apophis said:
I believe Cliff has a doctorate in nuclear physics and has used his background as a scientist to do extensive and rigorous testing on blades. His tendancy to not tolerate misinformation and to frankly state his positions and why has made him unpopular with folks who can't stand to hear anything but glowing praise for their duper steel of the month. (Clearly it's him who is biased and not the mob that can't tolerate or rationally process any criticism.)

I guess from that perspective the baseless attacks that come out every time his name is mentioned aren't surprising.

It seems like there is a disturbing lack of basic reading comprehension or that a bunch of projecting takes place whenever people react to things he's written. Plus everyone is soooo brave attacking someone who can't respond or defend himself here, classy. :thumbdn:

In the quote above, it appears someone asked the man his opinion on 3v for choppers. He said he doesn't prefer it and laid out the reasons why. The response seems perfectly rational to me, but wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying a chopper in that steel at all. He didn't say is was a bad steel, didn't say it performs poorly, didn't insult anyone's mother, etc... But hell, let's all crucify him for it anyway :confused:
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What's your name over on cliffs forum? I am sure you'll let him know of this thread and be a loyal follower :rolleyes:

No one in this thread has levied any insults as if cliffstamp insulted their mother, have they? Seems the only one exaggeration in this thread has come from you. Good day sir.
 
I disagree with him that 3V confers no benefits for larger blades, I do agree that it doesn't confer enough benefits to make it worth the premium to me. I think Cliff Stamp is very smart. I also think he has a tendency to state his opinion as fact and frequently fails to provide the evidence to back it up.
 
Just don't disagree with cliff as he has a greater than thou/boo hoo attitude when getting into debates. I have seen him do it with some makers that I highly respect.
 
I respect some of Cliffs views but, maybe his 3V examples dont have the greatest HT or something. In some new tests, with an updated HT, 3V is proving to outperform even the legendary INFI(known to be a great large chopper steel) in some ways. He should check out some of Nathan Carothers recent blades and testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imZ4Vo8iwA

Also, many people dont find 3V very hard to sharpen at all compared to a lot of other steels. And, with modern diamond stones, sharpening any steel is not that big of a deal imo. Corrosion resistance, edge retention, and other attributes should be taken into consideration as well.

Relentless_Knives_Steel_chart.jpg
 
Cliff Stamp has a degree is a completely unrelated field and uses non-scientific methods to make his proclamations. The sheer sample size alone would discredit any actual results.

He then uses his unrelated degree to bully people into agreeing with him.

If he would just stop acting like his results are the be all end all, people wouldn't have as many problems with him.
 
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