Clone Knives from a more expensive famous knife design: Is it fraud, a Knock-Off or just a cheaper knife?

jlauffer said:
How has Chronovore Chronovore not responded to this?!?! 🤔
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I've been busy. Almost missed it if not for the tag!

Overall, counterfeits are the worst. Aside from anyone's position on intellectual property in the global marketplace, counterfeits largely function on deception; either in duping a customer for profit or in that customer trying to dupe the community for cool points. It's BS and should be avoided. For anyone who doesn't care about that, there is an additional consideration that the steel stamp is about as good as the brand stamp. It might say "M390" but it's 8Cr13Mov if you're lucky.

Sadly, it isn't just counterfeits that stamp whatever they think will sell on a piece of 5Cr15 (or worse). That has long been a risk of unknown upstarts or unscrupulous brands. Eafengrow is probably the most notorious for this on Amazon. That's why it's wise to buy from trusted brands.

The issue of trying to trick consumers on steel seems far more nefarious to me than homages, aped designs, or copied features. Sure, there is a level at which it sucks to see ideas copied without proper protocol. Some people get bent way out of shape about it. They make a big deal about theoretical theft, or companies losing sales because people buy the homage (even though such logic is counterfactual). Consider the picture posted by M Maximumbob54 . How many people were definitely going to buy the Rat or the Sebenza but then didn't because and only because they bought the Ganzo or Land (Sanrenmu) instead? Meanwhile, how many tried the cheap homage and then decided they wanted the real deal? Like Bob, it happened to me once upon a time and now I'm a Spyderco fan. :)
 
Counterfeits are meant to deceive. A criminal act. IMHO.

Clones are meant to be a low cost substitute for a high end knife. Lots of things to consider here. Is the quality acceptable? Is an original available? Can you afford an original?

My litmus test is this. If you show me your item and say “It’s just like a ______”. Then you should have bought a “______” The “_______” is what you really wanted and you talked yourself into buying a substitute. You will always have a twinge of regret.

To further muddy the waters. Every knife made has been inspired to some extent by what has come before. Fine line between cloned and inspired, but you know it when you see it.

I mean realistically why buy a $20 fake Buck 110 when anyone can afford a real one?

Also realistically I like Rolex Submariner watches. I can’t afford one, I couldn’t even afford the maintenance. Virtually every watch I have ever bought was inspired by a Submariner. I do not own and would never buy a straight up counterfeit of a Rolex.
 
My question is... how are they making knockoff sebenzas out of real titanium for $50? Crowned spines, hollow grinds, the works.

And why isn't there more thick titanium handled frame locks on the market full stop? Is it that hard to make a simple less is more titanium frame lock? Just make an original product!!
 
EngrSorenson said:
I suggest you go back and re-read for comprehension, understand who I was responding to, and regarding what, then come back and apologize for insinuating I’m anything less than honorable.
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I didn't question your honor. I questioned your logic. Your point would take time. Time benefits the counterfeiters, not the honest creators. 'Work itself out' likely would take time. Maybe crippling a small business.
 
Caution!! Worst clone story ever!!

My X wife went on a business trip to, yup, China. Part of the festivities was a conference on clones of Their world famous product.
What does she do? Buys a knockoff handbag, and fake Rolex’s for my parents.
She’s my X for a reason….make that, many reasons.
 
GmpaJim said:
Caution!! Worst clone story ever!!

My X wife went on a business trip to, yup, China. Part of the festivities was a conference on clones of Their world famous product.
What does she do? Buys a knockoff handbag, and fake Rolex’s for my parents.
She’s my X for a reason….make that, many reasons.
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I traveled to China on a college trip, and the "Silk Market" was one of the most eye opening things for me.
an indoor mall filled with gobs of cheap crap and obvious knock-offs. Ultimate tourist trap and my least favorite part about the trip.

It became a bit of a game with some of the students to buy the faux name brand items for pennies on the dollar.
I didn't see the appeal.
 
SwissHeritageCo said:
My question is... how are they making knockoff sebenzas out of real titanium for $50? Crowned spines, hollow grinds, the works.

And why isn't there more thick titanium handled frame locks on the market full stop? Is it that hard to make a simple less is more titanium frame lock? Just make an original product!!
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The point was made about low wages but there are a variety of issues affecting the economics of manufacturing in our respective countries. Unfortunately, a thorough discussion of that, how it happened, or ways to make it better wades into politics. By forum rules, those conversations are restricted to the political subforum.

Also consider the point I raised previously about genuine materials. Is that "titanium" actually titanium? Is the blade steel whatever they say it is? Have costs been cut in other areas? Remember that in many cases, they are not selling a high quality knife meant to do knife things. They are often selling an image and might not have any incentive to get past immediate inspection. That's not true in all cases, such as some of the Ganzo or Sanrenmu knives that tend to be decent for their $20 price tags. However, "buyer beware" is sound advice in this category.

That said, China does have a huge supply of titanium and easily leads the world in both titanium frame locks and titanium EDC doodads. There are a few more respectable Chinese companies making titanium frame locks in budget steels like D2, N690, and 14C28N at competitive prices. TwoSun is probably the most widely known of these although their prices have crept up in the last few years.
 
Chronovore said:
The point was made about low wages but there are a variety of issues affecting the economics of manufacturing in our respective countries. Unfortunately, a thorough discussion of that, how it happened, or ways to make it better wades into politics. By forum rules, those conversations are restricted to the political subforum.

Also consider the point I raised previously about genuine materials. Is that "titanium" actually titanium? Is the blade steel whatever they say it is? Have costs been cut in other areas? Remember that in many cases, they are not selling a high quality knife meant to do knife things. They are often selling an image and might not have any incentive to get past immediate inspection. That's not true in all cases, such as some of the Ganzo or Sanrenmu knives that tend to be decent for their $20 price tags. However, "buyer beware" is sound advice in this category.

That said, China does have a huge supply of titanium and easily leads the world in both titanium frame locks and titanium EDC doodads. There are a few more respectable Chinese companies making titanium frame locks in budget steels like D2, N690, and 14C28N at competitive prices. TwoSun is probably the most widely known of these although their prices have crept up in the last few years.
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I wouldn't doubt if the titanium did turn out to be real on those knockoff sebenza's, the bead blasting is certainly real. I would however doubt the "S35VN" steel (likely D2). I watched a few videos on them and regardless of materials the damn things have a nice enough build quality and finish. Just seems like such a waste of talent, tooling, and resources.

I particularly enjoy the way CRK bevels the thick slabs of titanium. I'm surprised I don't see more of it, I think Chavez followed suite. People love the looks of the Sebenza and I'm shocked these Chinese companies would copy it outright rather than make a quality version of their own at a higher price point.

Chinese companies could really benefit from hiring a single Westerner to oversee their releases and again, I'm surprised they don't.
 
I think a lot of them are already using a lot of foreign designers. Like I like my Lander that Ben Petersen gets paid for by several companies making his knives.
 
Maximumbob54 said:
I think a lot of them are already using a lot of foreign designers. Like I like my Lander that Ben Petersen gets paid for by several companies making his knives.
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They are definitely using established designers for some of their releases. I'm of the mind that at least one dedicated westerner should consult on all of their releases (considering the market).

Just look at all of the holes Civivi is putting into stuff these days... someone should have told them to chill out with that ;)
 
SwissHeritageCo said:
They are definitely using established designers for some of their releases. I'm of the mind that at least one dedicated westerner should consult on all of their releases (considering the market).

Just look at all of the holes Civivi is putting into stuff these days... someone should have told them to chill out with that ;)
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I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, one man's trash is another man's treasure, and more phrases and I don't mean to offend anyone....

The Biophase looks and has a name like a high class gas station knife I probably would have loved as a kid. Civivi is listed as the designer on that one so there isn't anyone I can look up to know who to avoid... And yet they also designed the Elementum.
 
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