Close call?

W

Willie Boy

Joined
Apr 18, 1999
Messages
328
Last week, while driving in an unfamiliar and somewhat seedy part of town, it occurred to me, if subjected to an attempted car jack or assault of some kind, I would be unprepared because my La Griffe was around my neck and under my shirt and jacket and my Voyager was in my back pocket, beside my wallet. My butt, by the way was strapped in by the seat belt. Therefore, a "quick" extraction of the Voyager would have taken at least ten seconds. Upon reflection, I decided there was little point to carrying a defensive knife, if it was going to be unavailable at a time of need. I decided to take corrective action by keeping the Voyager on the seat next to me while driving.

Yesterday morning, I had two appointments with clients at their homes and then some personal insurance business to attend to. I had never been to the insurance agency before, though I knew approximately where it was. As I entered the appropriate neighborhood, I decided I would call the agency on my cell phone to determine their exact location rather than employ my usual practice of wandering around until nearly out of gas before seeking directions. I pulled into a covenience store parking lot to look up the phone number and make the call. As soon as my car came to a stop I was approached by six members of a different racial group who had been standing around the parking lot talking. One came to the window on the drivers side and asked what I wanted in a challenging, confrontational way. Several oof the others just glared at me. The drivers door was unlocked so I quickly flipped the switch to lock it. I really had no witty retort prepared so I simply explained I wanted nothing and just pulled in to make a phone call. That seemed to satisfy him and he sneered at me and they walked away. As they walked away two or three continued to glare at me in a menacing way. When they got back to where they had been staning they all looked at me and laughed. I made my call and left.

I told a co-worker about this exchange and he suggested I had probably stumbled into a drug dealer's retail outlet and these characters assumed I wanted to make a buy. I tend to think it was more racially motivated, given the hostile attitude. In any event, I will never know what lead to this brief exchange, but I wonder if the sight of my Voyager on the seat beside me saved me a beating or worse. I do know the Voyager gave me little comfort at the time. Is this a great world or what?

[This message has been edited by Willie Boy (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
Willie Boy--couple of things. First, you were the worst President I have ever seen; I hope selling insurance works out for you.
Two, the 'knife idea' is no good. You were driving around in 'condition white.' If those guys would have started shooting, you'd just be an ink spot.
Additionally, knives are lousy combat weapons. You are within contact distance of your opponent, you are exposed to blood-borne pathogens and the justice system looks at 'knifaleros' as fresh meat for the prison system.
Face it, society is falling down. I intend to be a survivor. I'd find another line of work than deal with derelicts. If you must, get a decent gun. I know, I know, it's illegal unless you have a CCW license, and if your state provides that option, go for it. My state does not, but I don't let that stop me. If my hide or my wife's safety is an issue, the 342 or the 4516 goes into the belt, period.
But you have a ways to go. You have to become more aware--like locking those doors. You should have split and made the call from some other lot. Frankly, you should be dead, and it is by dumb luck that you are posting here.--OKG

[This message has been edited by Old Knife Guy (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
i second okg.
additionally,i think it was a drug dealers rerail outlet,as you mentioned.could have been some hostillity towards you,but i think all in all it was drugs.
just watch where you go,if anything looks suspicious,or you get a bad feeling in your gut,turn around and head for the hills.
 
I'd have to agree. A knife is a lousy combat weapon. But if carrying a gun is illegal, I'd say carry a (combat?) knife on a regular basis, and if you want to risk it, carry a gun, illegially. Where I live, it's a felony.

~Whirlwind~

P.S. OKG: I'd get rid of that 'confession' if I were you.

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Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
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[If this message has been edited by anyone but me, consider it void.]
 
I kinda agree with OKG for a reason or two. First, get a CCW permit as TX does have a system set up (I assume you're over 21) and get a real defense weapon not a defense tool.
Mykl

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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.
 
To Whirlwind: Thanks for your concern. However, if over 200 ex-lovers, the cops, my Savior and some knuts really want to burn me, they have LOTS of better things to use!
In Wisconsin, concealed carry violations are a misdemeanor. I got rousted on one in 1979; it goes back to my original premise--if they want you, they'll have you.
Lots has happened. I'm a tax paying' church goin' old guy now. The local Federales know and love me.
Willie Boy's post raises another issue; I'm sure that he's considered our advice, and maybe discounted it for fear of drawing attention from the police. There's another consideration in safety; do you write letters to represntatives for changes?
I recently wrote to our Attorney General, Jim Doyle, about auto knives. I got a nice letter in return; if he got 1,000 letters, maybe his attitude would change.
Florida was the first to grant CCW licenses to law abiding citizens. I believe 39 have 'shall issue' statutes.
This is another area for consideration.--OKG

[This message has been edited by Old Knife Guy (edited 12-21-2000).]
 
The bad guys have guns these days. Flashing a knife is just likely to insult them. Don't stand around making phone calls with irritable gang members nearby.
 
What I do is carry a nice fixed blade.
It's very quick into action. Carry it horizontally in the belt buckle area.
Is it a great combat weapon? we're not in combat are we. I imagine that if I ever have to use it for defense its not going to give my attacker a warm fuzzy feeling when I jam it in his neck or pelvis.

Yes if someone is stalking me or has made a death threat against me I'll break the law to protect myself by packing a gun. But I'm paranoid enough to feel safe with a quickly deployed knife.
 
In yesterday's encounter, OKG is right. I was caught off guard. The neighborhood I was in was fairly affluent. I would never have imagined I could have a problem like this at that location. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned in that. One can never assume they are safe. I have made calls on clients where I have had to travel through bad parts of town and I have carried my Star PD on those occasions.

I grew up on the south side of Chicago and when I was younger, this would never have happened. I was a street guy and was always alert. Now, I am a settled, middle age family/business man and my mind was on my business. I started this thread to remind others how easily and quickly we can be thrust into a situation we didn't anticipate and to point out the fact a knife is a pretty feeble instrument on which to place reliance.

In Texas, I could get a concealed carry permit. I think I will have to give this option further consideration.

OKG - I have never met you, but you really seem to be my kind of guy. I appreciate your frank and honest input. I always read your posts with special interest. As for your reference to my record as president, believe me, I wasn't there and didn't do it. For my money we should drive stakes through the hearts of Mr. and Mrs. Slick Willie and their entire administration.
 
OKG: I didn't know. Here, it's a felony, and a knife is a felony, concealed, if over 3". But 3.5" isn't over 3.x" is it? It's not 4", now is it? 4 comes after 3...
smile.gif
But then, I'm not in Palm Beach.

A pistol anywhere other than at home or work is a felony, concealed or otherwise, I think. What are the laws in WI?

~Whirlwind~

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Stop internet filtering! Go to peacefire.org to find out how.

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[If this message has been edited by anyone but me, consider it void.]
 
To Whirlwind: It's still a Class A misdemeanor. I was lucky. Half of the cops knew me, and I got all kinds of breaks. I got six weeks of civics classes and the charge was fully expunged under Wisconsin's First Offender Program.
But 1979 was a different time. Our cycle club had a great rapport with the local police motorcycle club. There was an understood dichotomy between a good guy with a gun and jerk with a gun.
I don't recommend the life I lived then. However, I still see armed citizens as a good idea. But hey, I grew up, I matured.--OKG
 
To the 4th,

The incident happened at the corner of Wibledon Estates Dr. and Stuebner-Airline. Nice neighborhood I thought. Who da thunk it?
 
I think you handled yourself very well in that situation,and diffused a potentially violent situation with multiple individuals.Whether you have a knife or if you are armed with your pistol,you should handle it in the same manner to diffuse the situation.Self-defense shootings as you would guess can create alot of B.S. to go through after the incident even if your 100% in the right.
 
I don't sit in on BF often enough though always enjoy time spent. The above incident that SW drove into are all around us...all we have to do is make a 'wrong turn', or sometimes do nothing at all...the situation will be thrust upon us wherever/whenever. Best we can do is plan ahead as best to avoid the situation...if not avoidable just be aware of the situation at hand and be ready and able to extricate yourself from it...if that's undoable...be a good Boy Scout...and Be Prepared. It seems to be getting worse not better...and expect more of the same..not less. That being said I tend to keep at my avail a variety of multipurpose tools as well as several specialized emergency devices. Just like my insurance card in the wallet and the fire extinguisher on the wall I hope they are never needed but I still feel its my responsibility to be ready for most concievable situations.

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Only perfect practice makes perfect
 
This reminds me of a situation I recently
got myself out of. Same scenerio, except
the group of young men actually demanded
my money as opposed to just being hostile.

Due to what must be a gift for talking to
and dealing with people, after some words,
I walked out of there with my knife still
in the sheath, my money still in my pocket,
and no physicality/injuries on either side.

Wasn't the best move for pride, but likely
the best for my own skin. As a friend said
after the fact: "whatever gets you out of
those situations in one piece is your best
choice". Amen.

T.
 
I want to third or Forth the idea that you undoubtedly walked into the outdoor flea market. Probably figured you were looking to score. They may have seemed inordinatly hostile but ..... it aint McDonalds !! Costumer service isnt job 1. Damn .. Wait .. it isnt in McDonalds either. Being white was probably less important than being a clean cut type. Im of Latin Descent but wear a high and tight haircut, am 37 and dress fairly conservative. My biggest problem in those areas is being mistaken for the police !

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Alex

My Knife Page
 
Now that I've had a few days to think about it, the thing that really gets me is that these guys were not kids. They were in their late twenties to mid-thirties and yet, they had nothing better to do with their time than brace me. Oh well, I'm happy to have escaped with no damage and I'll surely be more alert in the future.
 
OKG's point about "condition white" is definately an issue.

If you're in TX, you do really need a CCW permit. I have slightly more faith in a knife as a weapon than OKG does, but surrounded while seated in a car is a terrible situation for a knife. There's more or less no way you'd ever fight clear of the car itself to get yourself any maneuvering room.

Your only option if it came to a fight is to fire up the motor and start doing "donuts" right in the middle of them...this step might be warranted if they pull a gun.

What you really needed was a gun. You need to score a TX CCW, and pack at least something like a five-shot .38Spl snubbie wheelgun...that's the most basic level of "fighting handgun" available and one of the types of gun OKG mentioned.

In 18 years of always having a good knife on me, I've been very glad twice. In each case, I'm still lucky that matters didn't escalate into my needing a gun, which you can't get a Calif CCW for just yet. I'm fighting like a maniac to change that. A gun and carry permit are like a fire extinguisher - they cause no problems on their own, and in those rare times you need one, you'll be damned glad.

And with all THAT said, if a knife is all you can carry because the penalties would be too crazy if you packed a gun illegally and no permits are available, carry a good knife. There ARE situations a blade can get you out of, I'm living proof of that. At present, with my lawsuit going against my Sheriff over CCW illegality, bias, corruption and the like, I can't bend the weapons laws even a little.

Thank God for REKAT's Sifu. Even once I score the gun permit, it'll never leave my side until it's unseated as "king of the fighting folders".

Jim
 
Yeah. I'm not sure I would go as far as to make blanket statements like, "knives are lousy combat weapons" and instead recommend gun use. This is kind of a "what if" thread, so lets look at the possibilities.

I'm glad things turned out well in this case, but what if they hadn't? What if the group didn't just walk away but actually did something to threaten your safety?

I guess the worst case scenario is that all six of them pull out guns and start shooting at you for some reason. In that case, you'll probably just die and you should have been more careful to start with. The 2nd worst case scenario might be that just one or two of them pull out guns and start shooting. Since your window is down and you calmly let them approach to within a couple of feet of your car, you may very well die then too, no matter what weapon you have. A gun could give you a least some chance, but it's still a horrible, almost no-win situation.

Lets look at some better case scenarios though. How about one where the guy comes up to your window and is very confrontational, for whatever reason, and starts to challenge you. His anger eventually rises to the point where, after he hears you lock the door, he reaches in through the window and tries to grab you and pull you out. What would you do? The first thing is to try and flee, but what if that wasn't possible for some reason?

If you had a gun, would you shoot him? What if the guy died or was crippled? You could claim self-defense because you were in fear of serious injury or death because there were six of them and only one of you, but if they were all unarmed, you've got a lot of explaining to do. Plus, you'd be in a lot more trouble if the gun is illegal. Also, if the six guys are of a different race than you, the prosecutor will call you a paranoid racist. All this stuff happened with Bernard Goetz.

Would you fire a warning shot? Where? You're in your car; you'd have to fire through the windshield or into a seat or something. Are you sure you can control the trajectory of the bullet after it leaves your gun? Will the bullet hit an innocent bystander?

Lets replace the gun with a knife in this scenario. Are there any advantages to having a knife instead? Sure. You can cut the guy's hand as he grabs for you (if you tried to shoot his hand, the bullet may end up ricochetting around the car), meaning that it might be easier to stop the attack without using deadly force. Plus, a folding knife is more likely to be legal (CCW permits not withstanding) and less likely to injure bystanders.

Yes, guns make much better combat weapons than knives in most situations, but it seems like a knife could be a viable self-defense weapon in this particular scenario.
 
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