Close Contact Fighting Knife Design

[BladeScout]

I bet.

Plenty terrifying, yes.

 

[Spectre]

Hell, if you weren't warned, outgoing 120mm sounds like the base just took a hit. It's LOUD. The one time they hung some rounds without me being on the gun (without warning), I hit the ground.

We were trying to nail one of the @#$%ers with both mortars after one attack, and our interpreter was listening to what the Tali was saying on the radio to his guys as our rounds fell:

I'm down by the river. They don't know where I am.

I s**t my pants.

 

[Burl Source]

Maybe I missed it somewhere. But.....isn't a karambit considered a close contact fighting knife.

 

[Josh Rider]

Maybe I missed it somewhere. But.....isn't a karambit considered a close contact fighting knife.

:thumbup: I have a buddy that trains with them. Really cool knives.

 

[BladeScout]

hell, if you weren't warned, outgoing 120mm sounds like the base just took a hit. It's loud. The one time they hung some rounds without me being on the gun (without warning), i hit the ground.

We were trying to nail one of the @#$%ers with both mortars after one attack, and our interpreter was listening to what the tali was saying on the radio to his guys as our rounds fell:

i'm down by the river. They don't know where i am.

I s**t my pants.

Lol..

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Close combat knives are safer for the user if there is only one edge and not two. In close combat the knife is kept tucked close to the users arm and not waving around where he can be disarmed.

I trained under an Army Ranger for 5 years and it hurt a lot, but then I learned a lot.


Fred

 

[BladeScout]

Close combat knives are safer for the user if there is only one edge and not two. In close combat the knife is kept tucked close to the users arm and not waving around where he can be disarmed.

I trained under an Army Ranger for 5 years and it hurt a lot, but then I learned a lot.


Fred

Dont believe Fairbairn and Sykes would agree

Yeah I know, they were advocates of certain blades for a specific use

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Dont believe Fairbairn and Sykes would agree

Yeah I know, they were advocates of certain blades for a specific use

The blade went with a specific technique; sneak up on em and stab them in the neck. That works.

Case in point; I forged a throwing hawk for a friend, it had a large curved blade on one side and an extremely pointy spike on the other. My friend ended up piercing his ear lobe even though that was not his intent. The forward movement after hooking his earlobe enlarged the hole so that it would accept an object the size of his thumb. He was a little bit red in the face; we laughed after we knew he was going to survive.

 

[shane justice]

Hey guys,

Just poking my head up for a second to give a shout out.

John! I was looking for something I wrote awhile back, when my name popped up here. I cried when I saw that picture! It has been a long time since I felt that good. Thanks Man! My greatest accomplishment as a knifemaker was knowing something I made did not fail in battle. There is no greater test. I love you for remembering me.
Shane

 

[Gaston444]

The suggestions from Mr. Apelt are almost all correct, except

Which is, of course, ridiculous. Knives are in fact the most dangerous weapons up close. Despite that, a 3-4" sturdy knife is a good choice. This is a Shirley-Owens MK1, which I think is about right for most troops. Most of the Special Ops troops I've been on missions with did not have large knives, even when routinely close to the enemy (speaking of which- not sure how you're going to maintain 100 meter separation from the enemy when kicking in doors. Just sayin'). The single exception was a PRT Marine Gunny Sgt with a huge Pakistani Rambo knife. I asked him about it, and he said he just used it for crowd control. It worked, too- I saw him pull it out and just hold it in front of him. And the Afghan LNs just parted, like Moses parting the seas.

The knives I have actually used in combat were a Spyderco Native LW, serrated, and a custom Shane Justice knife. Both used to get into mortar crates and "tootsie roll" ammo carriers. Here's a pic of me with the SJ Soldier's Knife in early 2007 after a firefight. In case any of you don't know, war always ends up muddy.

(Here's a pic of the Soldier's Knife- which is actually a little larger than most Soldiers need, but which was good to have to get into ammo crates quickly during a firefight.- with other tools for size reference)

So, again, a 3-4" sturdy, single-edged knife is probably the best all-around combat knife. A sturdy, quick-access sheath that can be mounted on armor or belt is needed. Anything larger starts to interfere with other gear, and anything smaller is only useful for slicing and opening packages.

John Shirley

A 3-4" blade is a -moderately- good idea for utility, but for fighting use it is self-defeating, and of not much use as a morale-builder...: Knives are already well known to have very little "stopping power", so a blade this small worsens what is the worst thing about fighting with knives... Without a deep stab, or a deep and broad slash, a failure to stop the opponent is virtually guaranteed: Knives are extremely weak weapons, and making them small worsens this worst aspect of their use as a weapon...

Furthermore, the custom knife shown above has a deep belly, which almost garantees poor performance for fighting: Its design is more that of a skinner.

For real utility I would go for expendable items like box cutters, pliers, screwdrivers, nailclippers, etc...

In Europe, from the 1930s to the 1970s, the name "Boy Scout knife" applied to a specific knife design that had a 7" blade and was built like a true fighting knife: It is the only specific knife design that I know of that is referred to generically as a "Boy Scout Knife" by Europeans of a certain age: This style of knife was often carried in combat by French soldiers in Algeria, among whom my father: They were very finely made, despite production in the millions intended for ten year olds, and the carbon versions were extremely sharp (the stainless ones were hard to get sharp, for some reason):

Blade length was typically 7" on a 4" handle, for 11" overall: Over 3/16" stock at the guard, very strong, with a full distal taper, extremely light as a result (much too light in my opinion):

These knives were then carried with great satisfaction by French soldiers in Algeria, where you never knew when and where the enemy might turn up. You could be his guest and he would treat you well, until the moment you left his home... Quite comparable to Irak, except Algeria was a lot bloodier... You never knew who you were dealing with...

These knives were considered modest enough to be routinely issued to millions of ten year old Boy Scouts... It would be quite amazing historically if the US Army had grown so PC that these Boy Scout knives, intended for ten year old civilians in the millions, would now be forbidden to modern front line soldiers...

As to daggers being dangerous to the user in fighting due to being double-sided, I don't think that's true, but it is true a single edge knife of similar point sharpness is far more useful than any gain from a double edge: The main gain I see with a double edge is that it is typically 25% lighter owing to the grind, and more if the blade is narrow, which still allows great point slicing due to the lack of belly (skinners don't point-slice, they point-push)...

One must be aware that the current fashion for small fixed blades is a very recent one, and has more potential for detriment than usefulness. I would say any military blade under 6" should be a pocket folder.

Gaston

 

[shane justice]

Wow,

As the maker of that knife, the previous post, is basically a slap in the face.

In other times,I would allow you the choice of weapons.

Unfortunately, I am old and sick and crippled. You just keep talking and talking. There is no better way for.you to PROVE your inexperience and ignorance about knives, edge.geometry, grind contours and
Blade engineering.

I don't have the energy to write more. Too bad people are so dumb, it's good I can't. make knives any more. I would.build you all a "skinning knife" that will carve livers and take hair and fingers like you cannot believe!

ShaneJustice

 

[Spectre]

A 3-4" blade is a -moderately- good idea for utility, but for fighting use it is self-defeating, and of not much use as a morale-builder...: Knives are already well known to have very little "stopping power", so a blade this small worsens what is the worst thing about fighting with knives... Without a deep stab, or a deep and broad slash, a failure to stop the opponent is virtually guaranteed: Knives are extremely weak weapons, and making them small worsens this worst aspect of their use as a weapon...

Furthermore, the custom knife shown above has a deep belly, which almost garantees poor performance for fighting: Its design is more that of a skinner.

For real utility I would go for expendable items like box cutters, pliers, screwdrivers, nailclippers, etc...

In Europe, from the 1930s to the 1970s, the name "Boy Scout knife" applied to a specific knife design that had a 7" blade and was built like a true fighting knife: It is the only specific knife design that I know of that is referred to generically as a "Boy Scout Knife" by Europeans of a certain age: This style of knife was often carried in combat by French soldiers in Algeria, among whom my father: They were very finely made, despite production in the millions intended for ten year olds, and the carbon versions were extremely sharp (the stainless ones were hard to get sharp, for some reason):

Blade length was typically 7" on a 4" handle, for 11" overall: Over 3/16" stock at the guard, very strong, with a full distal taper, extremely light as a result (much too light in my opinion):

These knives were then carried with great satisfaction by French soldiers in Algeria, where you never knew when and where the enemy might turn up. You could be his guest and he would treat you well, until the moment you left his home... Quite comparable to Irak, except Algeria was a lot bloodier... You never knew who you were dealing with...

These knives were considered modest enough to be routinely issued to millions of ten year old Boy Scouts... It would be quite amazing historically if the US Army had grown so PC that these Boy Scout knives, intended for ten year old civilians in the millions, would now be forbidden to modern front line soldiers...

As to daggers being dangerous to the user in fighting due to being double-sided, I don't think that's true, but it is true a single edge knife of similar point sharpness is far more useful than any gain from a double edge: The main gain I see with a double edge is that it is typically 25% lighter owing to the grind, and more if the blade is narrow, which still allows great point slicing due to the lack of belly (skinners don't point-slice, they point-push)...

One must be aware that the current fashion for small fixed blades is a very recent one, and has more potential for detriment than usefulness. I would say any military blade under 6" should be a pocket folder.

Gaston

You obviously paid little attention to what I and others have posted. Large knives have been prohibited by many US commands in Afghanistan.

As for "fighting" knives, I'll take my own experience and training over whatever you think you know. The soldiers with the most experience killing others with knives in the past century all used recurves, but what do Ghurkas know, right?

John

 

[Gaston444]

Wow,

As the maker of that knife, the previous post, is basically a slap in the face.

In other times,I would allow you the choice of weapons.

Unfortunately, I am old and sick and crippled. You just keep talking and talking. There is no better way for.you to PROVE your inexperience and ignorance about knives, edge.geometry, grind contours and
Blade engineering.

I don't have the energy to write more. Too bad people are so dumb, it's good I can't. make knives any more. I would.build you all a "skinning knife" that will carve livers and take hair and fingers like you cannot believe!

ShaneJustice

Not it's not a slap in the face. If you think deep bellied or Tanto points, American or otherwise, are good tip slicers, then you don't understand the geometry. I just said the knife I saw was not a fighting design, and was more a skinner design, because of the deep belly. Skinning doesn't strike me as military-oriented useage, but if some like those fine, just don't call them fighting or even "combat" designs. The belly doesn't help the tip slice at all, just the opposite, because it is the opposite of a hook shape. Straight edges are closer to a hook, which is why they do tip slice well, because the hooking motion is needed for serious tip slices. Many daggers also tip slice well because of this.

The fact deep bellies don't tip-slice well for defense is self-evident. I could not assume you intended the knife for fighting from its design, which to me looks like that of a hunting knife.

If you think military fixed blade knives should exclude any fighting considerations, then a deep belly would make sense.

Not every service member is under a command that prohibits large fixed blades: I can understand why that is the case around foreign populations on whose good will the whole mission depends, but then why carry a fixed blade and not a folder?

The OP specifically stated he wanted to make the blade 7.25" long, so you see, I did carefully read the thread and the OP's post: By advising knives well under that length, I would suggest it is those who advise a 3-4" fixed blade who did not read his post...

As for the Ghurkas using bellied edges, their knives are in the 10" range and made to use as choppers, not for what we French call "d'Estoc et de Taille". In any case the Kurkri's belly is not that deep, and is not always radiused all that close to the point, which does help it tip-slice.

Gaston

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I think the OP has enough info, and the thread has badly derailed. Intelligent discussion and civility are partners. If you stop using one, the other gets lost.