Closed Folder For Self Defense

L

Lethal Overdose

Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
73
I have been thinking of getting a Cold Steel 6" Ti-Lite. One reason I like it is: when closed, you have a 7" kubaton (more like club) for smackin stuff.

Then I got to thinkin... If a closed folder was used as a kubaton in an escalated fist fight and the confrontation ended without the blade being deployed, could one be charged with using a deadly weapon?

I don't know if it matters, but I'm in eastern Virginia.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Look at it this way: your opponent sees the fist fight taken up a notch when you pull a knife. Instead of waiting for you to deploy the blade, he pulls out a pistol and shoots you dead.

What you are asking about used to come up all the time when Bram Frank tried to present the Gunting as a less-than-lethal use of force. Unfortunately, that's a knife you have in your hand, not a kubotan.
 
The 6" Ti-Lite is a deadly weapon. Is it even legal to carry there? In Texas, it's not.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Look at it this way: your opponent sees the fist fight taken up a notch when you pull a knife. Instead of waiting for you to deploy the blade, he pulls out a pistol and shoots you dead.

What you are asking about used to come up all the time when Bram Frank tried to present the Gunting as a less-than-lethal use of force. Unfortunately, that's a knife you have in your hand, not a kubotan.
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I don't get it, if your attacker had a gun, why wouldn't he use the gun in the first place? He could avoid the fist fight altogether simply by pointing a gun at you.
 
"If a closed folder was used as a kubaton in an escalated fist fight" Who was the attacker? Perhaps it was a misunderstanding that got out of hand. Not a deadly assault, which is why Lethal Overdose didn't want to escalate to overt deadly force.

But if the other man sees a knife as deadly force even in closed position, he can go to the next level of self-defense, which he wasn't looking for at first.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
"If a closed folder was used as a kubaton in an escalated fist fight" Who was the attacker? Perhaps it was a misunderstanding that got out of hand. Not a deadly assault, which is why Lethal Overdose didn't want to escalate to overt deadly force.

But if the other man sees a knife as deadly force even in closed position, he can go to the next level of self-defense, which he wasn't looking for at first.
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i disagree with your interpretation of his question. even if i felt really threatened, something more serious than a "misunderstanding, i would still use as little "deadly" force as possible. if i could get by with punching the agressor with a closed folder, i would do this rather than stabbing him in the eye...just because i dont want to kill someone dosnt mean they are trying to harm or kill me. i would kill if i absolutely had too, if my life, or other innocents depended on it, but i wouldnt kill if i didnt have to....simple as that.
 
cotdt said:
I don't get it, if your attacker had a gun, why wouldn't he use the gun in the first place? He could avoid the fist fight altogether simply by pointing a gun at you.
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Because in many places you can't pull a gun on someone when they attack with fists(unless they're huge enough to count as being "deadly force").
But you certainly can in most places if they pull a knife.
 
deermaster said:
if i could get by with punching the agressor with a closed folder, i would do this rather than stabbing him in the eye...
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I understand what you're saying, but consider this:
If someone drew a knife out of their pocket during a confrontation, would YOU wait to see if they were going to open it to use on you(and, by waiting, possibly die), or would you flatten them with whatever means you had available?
 
In courts, when a weapon of some sort is involved, it doesn't matter how it was involved. I have seen more than one case wherein pistol-whipping was treated no differently that firing a shot. Aggravated Assault (aka Assault with a Deadly Weapon and it's other names) is still the crime before the court.

Use a knife, regardless of the manner, ONLY when the situation warrants using deadly force.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I see a lot of good points in these posts. I guess a knife is a deadly weapon period, no matter how it is used. That's what I was thinking, I just wanted to know what others thought.

Joe-Bob, according to this I see no length limitations:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

I'm not sure if it could be considered a dirk or not. If not, I should be ok.
 
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Terms like dirk or dagger are obscure because they can be interpreted differently in neighboring jurisdictions. Unfortunately, double edged blade shapes, even when only one edge is actually sharpened, are generally seen as stabbing knives. You really need to ask within your own jurisdiction.
 
The issue with asking a LEO or even a ADA for what is or isn't legal, is that most often they will state it isn't legal even if they do not know for sure, as that is the simple answer that no one will second guess them on. As a former LEO, I made it a point to get in writing from a few ADAs what the law concerning pocket knives I collect is as a private citizen now. In NY law, it is a affirmative defense to have a clear statement from a governmemt agency impling that a action is legal for you to do. If you ask your local DA, get a written response from them and make a few copies of it!
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Look at it this way: your opponent sees the fist fight taken up a notch when you pull a knife. Instead of waiting for you to deploy the blade, he pulls out a pistol and shoots you dead.

What you are asking about used to come up all the time when Bram Frank tried to present the Gunting as a less-than-lethal use of force. Unfortunately, that's a knife you have in your hand, not a kubotan.
Click to expand...
He probably saw the Cold Steel "Proof" video where CS president Lynn C. Thompson used the 6" Ti-Lite as an improvised Yawara stick while he demonstrated the proper technique with employee Robert Vaughan, who is much taller (but I don't know about heavier!:D) than Thompson. During the close-in exchange, Thompson managed to open the Ti-Lite behind Vaughan's back and mimicked a kidney thrust, which in real combat would probably be fatal. A roll of quarters or nickels would be a great improvised fist pack while the 4" version of the Ti-Lite would be much more practical for daily use and concealed carry in the pocket.

As far as fist fights are concerned, Dr. Harold "Hackie" Reitman probably gives the best advice. A former Golden Gloves heavyweight champion as well as a successful orthopedic surgeon, Reitman noted that a fight is exhausting and untrained civilians cannot usually go for more than a minute. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a fight, hit fast and hard and end it quickly is the doctor's recommendation.
 
If you did successfully initiate and deliver this improvised smackdown and got into legal trouble, you'd likely be accused of using the knife as an improvised blackjack, which is just as illegal.

I carry a Morpho 32, which has a very nice impact surface made by the tang when closed. I wouldn't use it even as a impact weapon unless I was 100% sure my life (or others lives) were in danger.
 
"Then I got to thinkin... If a closed folder was used as a kubaton in an escalated fist fight and the confrontation ended without the blade being deployed, could one be charged with using a deadly weapon?"

Sometimes the Pen is as mighty as the kubaton.
PocketShark.jpg
 
The funny part is, those pics are to scale...
I never would have thought they were that big until my brother got one.
 
deermaster said:
i disagree with your interpretation of his question. even if i felt really threatened, something more serious than a "misunderstanding, i would still use as little "deadly" force as possible. if i could get by with punching the agressor with a closed folder, i would do this rather than stabbing him in the eye...just because i dont want to kill someone dosnt mean they are trying to harm or kill me. i would kill if i absolutely had too, if my life, or other innocents depended on it, but i wouldnt kill if i didnt have to....simple as that.
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The problem with this thought is that you are holding back. That alone is going to hurt you when it comes to protecting your life.
 
stabman said:
Because in many places you can't pull a gun on someone when they attack with fists(unless they're huge enough to count as being "deadly force").
But you certainly can in most places if they pull a knife.
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Law be damned to crazy attackers who have guns. Having known some of such people, I doubt they would even care. They would use deadly force upon you if you don't comply, period. They might use it on you anyway.
 
Yeah if I got into a fight and someone pulled a knife on me even before they had time to open the blade of the knife I would have pulled my concealed carry pistol and shot you in self defense because you pulling that knife made me fear for my life as opposed to just throwing punches
 
tinctorus said:
Yeah if I got into a fight and someone pulled a knife on me even before they had time to open the blade of the knife I would have pulled my concealed carry pistol and shot you in self defense because you pulling that knife made me fear for my life as opposed to just throwing punches
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In a fight the opponent would very likely feel out your concealed gun, you would not fear them stealing the weapon during the fight and using it against you?

I've been in around 30 fights in my life when I was younger, I know how the psychology works, as soon as the moment both people have thrown punches the fight WILL escalate. Drawing a weapon has nothing to do with that. So they draw a knife, and you draw your gun, so what? They could still stab you multiple times after you shoot them. People are not going to just drop dead instantly after a few bullets. Even a typical bullet to the heart, they'll still have at least 5 seconds to stab you, which is plenty of time to do similar damage back to you. Only way to instantly take them down is a shot to the head, but the bullet often does not penetrate the skull.

I digress, my point is that if you're throwing punches in a fight, and it hasn't escalated to a life/death situation, then why the hell would you be in the fight in the first place? For fun? That first punch you throw back to your attacker WILL escalate the fight, your life will be in jeopardy, that's how fights work. We're not boys anymore when we can just play fight.
 
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