Closing my thread

G

Gaucho

Joined
Oct 19, 1999
Messages
418
Donna,

It would have been nice if you had had the common courtesy to E-mail me privately to discuss any questions you might have about my post regarding the new Hossom Espada before accusing me of favoritism and closing the thread.

I am not in advertising. I am a doctor and a Martial Artist/Blade Player. I receive no remuneration whatsoever from Jerry or anyone else for the tests I do and the reviews I post. I do them for the love of the art and to promote real world testing of fighting blades, which I believe to be both critical and sorely lacking.

If you had bothered to ask me, you would have learned that I have reviewed other swords from other makers on SwordForums. And I have an Ontario Bagwell Bowie that I am going to review as just as soon as I am finished testing it. Also, I will have a T.H. Rinaldi custom A-2 Warhawk next week which Trace knows that I am going to fully test and post my review.

I have offered several times on various forums to test and review the fighting blades of other custom makers. So far, no other takers. That is in no way my fault. Nor can I be called biased if Jerry's knives are terrific. That's just the way it is. If they sucked, I would say so. I in no way would promote a fighting blade that would get someone killed if actually used in combat. The tests are the tests, the results are the results. That's it. Deal with it. Anybody else who wants to put their reputation on the line like Jerry, and Trace, and Bill, anty up.

So, now Donna, what's your agenda here?

Unlock my thread!

Mario Luis Dominguez, M.D.
 
I read what happened here, bit my tongue then went back into my shop vowing to put the matter out of my mind. I can't so I'll get it off my chest anyway.

I am offended by the implication that the review of my work is simply advertising puffery without regard to the merit of the sword in question. For the record, I have asked in recent weeks that two other evaluators of my knives to postpone publishing their evaluations to avoid the appearance of overt commercialism. Both are moderators of these forums, understood my concern, and did not publish favorable reviews of my knives/swords.

Gaucho is completely independent of any commercial ties to me, my business, or my knifemaking. He has given me advice on the design of these weapons, which I have gratefully accepted and some of which I followed, some I did not. That he might feel some enthusiasm for the blades in which he participated is wholly natural and not unlike the enthusiasm voiced in these forums everyday by those who feel a personal attachment to knives and makers they favor. Indeed, the moderator of this forum has repeatedly spoken in most glowing terms of a knifemaker she favors. He's a good knifemaker; I like his work too, but that does not suggest there is an effort of her part to "advertise" his knives.

If you are going to judge enthusiasm as commercial bias, I would suggest you block all mention of Chris Reeves Sebenzas in the Blade Discussion forum, since his knives certainly get more free advertising than Gaucho could possibly give me if he were to type his fingers to the bone.

Penalizing enthusiasm is petty. Doing so in a manner that impugns the integrity of Gaucho, myself and the blades I produce is reprehensible.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
I'm going to weigh in here and hopefully defuse this situation.

The post in question was a good review of the knife, and though it (and several other threads I was forwarded) could be construed as advertising in the most extreme sense, I don't think it was meant as such.

I do feel, however, that this was the wrong forum for this post. It would have been much better off in the Knife Reviews and Testing forum, instead of here, though you could certainly reference to it in another post.

I'm going to do some more research and see if this has been blown out of porportion...

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark,

Thank you for looking into this. The only reason that I posted this on the Filipino Combat Arts Forum is that I have been exchanging great posts with the folks on this forum for some time about all sorts of things related to F/IMA, and I had promised several of those people that I would post my findings on the new Espada prototype on this forum when I was done testing it.

I swear to you that I did this soley in the spirit of furthering the art and communicating my finding- which I had been asked to do- with my FMA brothers/sisters on the Forum. I was not trying to be tricky and advertize inappropriately in any way- it did not even occur to me as an issue, to tell you the truth.

Mario



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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Hi Folks

In all fairness, as a interested bystander & Bladeforum fan, I am disturbed by this situation. I find the closing of this thread unreasonable. I have read Gauco's other reviews & found no trace of overt advertising of Jerry Hossom's products. In fact, I find the reviews well balanced showing the Negative points as well as the Positive. If Gaucho is guilty of anything, it is having the ability & skill to write outstanding & enthusiastic reviews of blades. I would hope that all reviews of knives & other items on Bladeforums could be as comprehensively done as Gaucho has done. This Forum, I believe, is for the free exchange of information about blades. I also believe that Gaucho posted this review in this particular Forum as this blade is specifically designed for use in F.M.A. I also have no financial connection with Jerry Hossom, {though I am a fan of his knives}. Sparks, I appreciate it that you are looking into this matter. I hope that this will not degenerate into a flame war.

Doug.

[This message has been edited by Hart (edited 03-02-2000).]
 
Gaucho and Jerry,
I never said that a review here cannot fit in this board, but it is the steady stream of them that appears as advertising. I called it as I saw it but if Spark and Mike who determine the policy on this board chooses to override my decision, I will fully and completely respect that.

Spark,
I emailed you several times and didn't hear from you.
 
Donna, does that mean I should curtail my knifemaking so they are reviewed less often? Should I diminish my quality so there are more negatives to report.

I'm not exactly sure why you addressed this last to me. I didn't write or have any input at all in Gaucho's review other than to supply the blade for testing and information on its construction.

The fact is that I have created a large number of new designs, most of which I like to think are well thought out and well executed. I've been doing this for 20 years and have accummulated some skills in knifemaking. I willingly and openingly attribute much of the performance of these blades to 1) the steel I use, 2) the heat treating done by Paul Bos, 3) the design ideas that have been contributed by a goodly number of competent martial artists, and 4) a vast amount of knowledge given me over the years by the many fine and gifted knifemakers I've known.

Frankly your attitude here is quite hard to understand.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Donna,

I must admit that I was flabbergasted by your attack. I thought that you of all people would be thrilled at the prospect of a quality Espada tailored for FMA work. You must know how hard it is to obtain good FMA swords- one either has to suffer with the cheap garbage coming out of the Phillipines made from old truck springs, or if one has the $$$$$$$ and can wait several years, one can eventually purchase a quality antique sword that it would be a shame to use for combat training anyway. We all need something in between- first rate live FMA swords that don't cost a mint.

The other thing that shocked me about your response is that you have known that this Espada was in the works since the get go. I asked for everyone on the forum's opinions on design and performance perameters when the first profile was made. I told you many weeks ago that I was going to post a review of my findings when the sword was tested. If you had a problem, why didn't you say so then?

Many people on various forums have kept asking me when the review would be finished, so I know that there is interest for this information out there. In addition, you yourself told me that you are awaiting a short sword from another custom maker and I have been eagerly awaiting your review of it. So, naturally, what else could I think but that we were all freely exchanging information for the betterment of the Art. Was I wrong? Was there some other agenda here that I didn't understand?

As far as reviewing Jerry's knives, I have only ever reviewed three of his knives:

A bowie- with a 12 1/2" ATS-34 blade, which many so-called steel experts felt would be far too brittle for a blade that length and would snap under impact. It didn't.

A fighter in CPM-3V- a radical new steel for fighting blades. A steel which only a few makers have experience with. A steel that, after real world testing, I believe significantly pushes the performance envelope for fighting blades. Another interesting and valid review, wouldn't you think?

And last, the Espada in A-2. How many other A-2 swords do you know of out there? Hollow ground no less? Don't you think that finding out if A-2 is a good steel for swords is a useful thing to know for other custom makers out there? Not to mention determining whether or not a quality sword can or cannot be made by stock removal technique as opposed to the traditional forging. Maybe some other custom knife maker will be inspired now to go beyond knives and try his hand at sword making. Who says that good swords can only be made by bladesmiths who forge their own steel? Aren't these valid reasons for posting a review of an 30" A-2 one-handed sword? I, for one, think so.

I posted my Espada review in the spirit of futhering the Arts- both the Filipino/Indonesian Arts and the Sword Making Art. If you misunderstood that, well I'm sorry, but it would have been simple as pie to contact me privately to discuss my motives before impuning my integrity, declaring me of bias and favoritism publicly and then chastizing me by locking my thread.

Shame on you.

Mario



------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
I have to say that Donna was way out of line by locking Gaucho's thread ... IMHO.

First of all, I did not read Gaucho's post as anything other than a review of sword. Granted, it was a glowing review, but no more than one of Cliff Stamps reviews of a Himalayan Imports Khukuri, and to my eye no more biased. Gaucho did in fact point out negative points about the espada. I can't think of any people who do that in their advertisements, so I have a hard time believing that the review was intended to advertise the espada. Secondly, I have also personally seen Donna espousing about "Mad Dog" Knives on numerous occasions, and not even in a formal product "review", so I look on her condemnation in this situation with a bit of suspicion. Also, I think it's the content and intent that determines wether or not a post is advertising ... not the frequency of someone's reviews or posts. By Donna's "frequency" logic, one COULD argue that Smoke is advertising for someone based on all his vid reviews.

As for wether the review belongs here or not, normally I'd agree with Spark's initial response that a blade review would be best posted in the Reviews forum. However this review was on a blade that was designed specifically for FMA PLAYERS. This being the FILIPINO COMBAT ARTS FORUM ... I definitely see this review (and any other review of any FMA product) as being relevant to this forum. Yeah, you still argue that it could've been posted in the Reviews and Testing Forum and referenced on this forum, but I think it's pretty cool and convenient to have it here. Often, I don't have time to visit all the forums so I just go to the ones that are most important to me ... the FCA and other Tactics/Training Forums. If it was a review of khukuri, then I'd agree it shouldn't be here.

Finally, if any and all advertising is forbidden on this forum then what about Kelvin's list of FMA suppliers ... certainly that would be advertising considering that he has posted that list here on several occasions. I also guess that my (and all other) seminar announcements would also be forbidden since they are obviously advertising. That in spite of the fact that, at least in my club's case, we make almost nothing on our seminars because we charge so little to begin with and the reason we do it is to try to share something that we see as lacking in the FMA community in general.

If we can't post reviews, announcements or recommendations of FMA RELATED products, be it a blade, a tape, a seminar, a guro (if you recommend a guro to someone what are you doing except advertising that guro) then there really is not a whole lot left that we can discuss. Granted we can still talk about tactics and strategies , but we all know how limited we (as a group) are in describing a tactic in a comprehendable manner via the written word. Also, since tactics and strategies are based upon whatever style we practice or prefer (and we often - that frequency thing again - say "In ____ style, we ...") ... couldn't it be argued that we are in affect advertising that style? Oh, I almost forgot ... sig-files (like mine) that include a style or association name are also adverstising.

Hmmm ... maybe we should "lock" the entire FCA Forum as a violation of advertising.

Come on Spark, Donna ... think about it. And what do the other frequentors of the FCA Forum think?

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

P.S. Hey!! What happened to my sig-file? O well, it was just advertising anyway right?
wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-03-2000).]
 
To Who May Concern:


There's a TIME and a PLACE for everything!

Instead of TALKING a lot, try TRAINING a lot!

Pamela
smile.gif
 
Pamela,

Thank you. A truer thing could not have been said. This discussion is a bloody waste of everyone's time. There's more than enough negative energy on the Internet- in the World as a whole. Let's not add to it.

"Bygones" as Richard Fish on Allie McBeal likes to say.

Let's refocus on what's important here- the discussion and furtherment of Filipino Combat Arts.

Mario

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Reviews are posted here continously. Of all sorts of products and like it has been stated by others in this thread, this forum is about the exchange of information and helping each other to become better at whatever style or art that we practice. Gaucho's reviews are exuberant at times, but they are also as objective as such a review will ever be. Gaucho has pointed out both the pro's and con's of the Hossom designs. The fact that these designs are extremely well thought out, shouldn't count against Gaucho's reviews...And reviews are exactly what they are. Gaucho likes these blades, and obviously he likes them alot! That doesn't mean that he's advertising on Jerry's behalf...Jerry is fully capable of speaking for himself, and in my dealings with Jerry, he has never been afraid to point out a "weakness" in his own designs.
If you want to start locking threads because you feel that the postee is advertising a product...Well, first take a look at your own posts, Donna. And then start removing all other posts that praise any product. And that product can be everything from flashlights to video's...Have fun, but think about what you censor, Donna...
My 2 cents...

------------------
Regards
Joshua "Kage" Calvert

"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
I think the best solution is to post reviews of knives (and swords) in the Reviews & Testing forum and if it's particularly relevant to fma then post a link in this forum. That puts reviews where people can find them and the replies to them, too.

I think it should be clear to everybody that Gaucho is not trying to sneak advertising onto this forum. We all know his motives are pure, don't we? Let's not give him a hard time, or Jerry Hossom, either. All Jerry does is make knives ... you can't blame him if people get enthusiastic about them.
smile.gif


-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Gaucho,

I agree and disagree about this discussion being a waste of time. I can understand if you want to cut your losses and move on, especially since your review is still up for all to read. However, there's the principle of the matter, and how it will affect every future thread on this forum.

If we set aside comments made by those directly involved (you, Jerry & Donna), as well as Pamela (because she didn't really comment on the issue itself) and Spark (who hasn't given his final decision yet), we're left with comments from 3 impartial forum members: Hart, Carnifex and myself. So far it's unanimous that the Espada thread should NOT have been locked.

I agree however that we shouldn't let this degenerate into a flame war because that would be a waste of time. If Donna decides that she made an error in judgement, then I'm ready to move on. If not then we all just have to deal with it somehow.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

 
If you've followed any of these threads you will realize that none of them are advertisments. What, are book and video reviews blatant advertisments, too?

Gaucho has been a great resource with knife techniques as well as mindset and philosphies and has shared a lot.

I think that the Millenium Espada does belong in this forum because it is perfect for the FMA's. Don Rearic among others have brought to light these excellent knives that are perfect for FMA.

As a practitioner, I am always interested to hear about new knives as well as a have the ability to talk with other practitioners about what they like in a knife and even have a responsive and enthusiastic maker who's always willing to stand by his work and make changes. You don't often get to put that much imput into designs or get a chance to get real in depth reviews of knives.

Gaucho is doing us all a huge favor by sharing this with us.

Jason Yang
 
Ok, I've had a chance to look over all of the threads in question, and while they could look like advertising if they are looked at in a certain way, it's become pretty clear that the overall intent was to simply share information. The preponderance of posts being favorable to Jerry Hossom simply are Gaucho's liking Jerry Hossom, just like other members liking Sebenza's. If there were posts saying "Oh, how about this knife, it's available right here at this price, wink wink nudge nudge" I'd feel a bit differently, but IMHO, these posts are nothing to get out of shape about.

My apologies to you, Donna, for not getting back to you earlier on this. You used your best judgement, and we appreciate your being on the lookout for the members - no one wants to feel preyed upon. Like Gaucho, your intentions were also good, and this is just a misunderstanding.

It is still my belief that knife reviews should belong in the Reviews forum, so that everyone can see them, instead of being hidden in specific forums. You never know who might see it and say "Hey, wow, that's cool, maybe I should get into FMA" or something similar. Make a post here linking to it, but share the wealth, right?

Anyhow, hopefully the misconceptions on both sides are now taken care of, and we can all get back to the business at hand Knives and FMA. No harm, no foul... "Bygones"

Just don't touch my wattle.
biggrin.gif


Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 03-03-2000).]
 
You know...I never understood that wattle thing. Yuck! But I guess that's why they call it a fetish
wink.gif
.

Spark, thank you for taking the time to look into this issue. And thank you to all the other members who took the time to post on my behalf. I'm glad that you find my reviews useful- that's the reason I write them. I hope that you will forgive me if I wax poetic on occasion. What can I tell ya, I'm Argentine- we're a passionate, poetic people
smile.gif
. But I swear to you all that I will always test the blades I'm sent hard and report my findings accurately and honestly, good and bad, because, as I've said before, these are not kitchen knives we're dealing with here.

Donna, as far as I am concerned, this is now finished. I hope that we can go on exchanging information, and that if you and I ever meet, we can do so as friends and not enemies. Bygones?

Mario



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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
I guess what I have heard is that there are to be no weapon reviews on the FMA Forum. Is that correct? Or are we just removing all knife reviews from the forum and other weapons are OK? The Reviews Forum is not particularly useful for constructive dialogue between user and maker in that the comments there are not often from those directly involved with and interested in FMA.

Personally I think it would be a major disservice to all FMA's if discourse between those who use the weapons and those who make them is eliminated or even impeded. You will necessarily remove all feedback that leads to improved technology specifically for FMA.

Frankly I think policy is being decided in response to an emotional outburst by an individual at the expense of the community being served. This is exactly the same kind of passive, politically correct BS that is taking away our firearms. So now take away our knives...

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 03-03-2000).]
 
Spark,
I agree that the review forum is a better place for the thread.

To the others, on the postings of reviews, video reviews etc. is that they often appear once. If a certain instructor's tape reviews appeared over and over and the writing appeared as ad copy then I would deal with that the same way. It wasn't the one review, it was the many and the style of Gaucho's writing.

Gaucho, I realize your enthusiasm, we all get enthusiastic about various tapes, knives and instructors. But, it is as Pamela said, there is a time and a place for everything.

Fenris, if you read my post I stated that it wasn't the one review but the steady stream of them that looked highly suspect. And concerning the knifemakers who cater to the FMA's. There are others, we can actually do a thread just listing them.

Even the custom makers who dont cater to the FMA's specifically, will make a blade to anyone's specs. A knife is a very individual item. While one maker may make one sort of FMA knife or sword, another will make his version of the best FMA knife/sword. Mad Dog makes several of his knives and swords with FMA practicioners in mind as does James Piorek of JSP Bladerigger. Ed Schott and R.J. Martin are others. Jerry Hossom is another among this list which is incomplete because I am reciting makers off of the top of my head.

Allen Blade right now is making a claw ring. The ring is awesome, it will have a small linx style claw that will add something extra to parry's and it is an optimum Silat and grappling tool.

There is also Bladeforum's moderator Bram Frank who is writing a book on Modern Arnis who designed the escalator and which Sal Glessnar of Sypderco is working with Bram on a new and improved design soon to be released. I had the pleasure of meeting Sal at the New York Show and he started making knives because he grew up in a rough area of New York and the only way to protect yourself in the rough streets was to be able to deploy a knife real fast. He then demonstrated this to me with one of his folders.

The reason that the FCA forum is on Bladeforums is because of the marriage between the FMA's and knives. As for an optimum FMA blade, there are many great makers out there and Bladeforums has a representation of the best of them on these boards. Its all a very individual decision.--I have met many a FMA practicioner who favors a folder while others favor fixed blades. Which reminds me that this brings up some really good topic ideas.



 
Greetings to all:

I just refer to this sentences, "........one either has to suffer with the cheap garbage coming out of the Phillipines made from old truck springs, or if one has the $$$$$$$ and can wait several years, one can eventually purchase a quality antique sword that it would be a shame to use for combat training anyway."

I think, even an old truck spring can be of very good quality if the bladesmith knows the good treatment, it can be of a good sword or blade. An example of this is, the original "Moro Kris" that can cut an MI or Garand rifle barrel into two pcs, and this was a fact.

Another example, the original balisong from Batangas can penetrate or make a hole on any Philippine Coins. That is how a good bladesmith can do good treatment of his sword or blade, even the material is just from an old truck or jeep spring.

Thank you,

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 03-04-2000).]
 
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