Cloudy hamon- without clay...?

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Dec 3, 1999
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I do a lot of differentially hardened blades (seeking the elusive hamon... ;) ) without using clay.


Since I've had some guys ask me questions, and even had a few people accuse me of lying (which makes absolutely no sense to me :rolleyes:) about doing many of my blades without clay--- I took this video.

Of course the prep work leading up to this point is critical... but those elements would be the same as if I were doing a blade with clay.

The video starts off pretty much black--- it's supposed to be like that! I had the shop lights off. :)


[video=youtube;aMxUp99Pnbc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMxUp99Pnbc&feature=youtu.be[/video]


This is the blade (W1) all finished out-

medium800.jpg


medium800.jpg
 
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Excellent post! I have been working toward this. Even though I am trying it with an oven.
 
I do a lot of differentially hardened blades (seeking the elusive hamon... ;) ) without using clay.



Of course the prep work leading up to this point is critical... but those elements would be the same as if I were doing a blade with clay.

What do you mean by that, the normalizing sequence ?
 
Thanks Nick. I would be interested in hearing the specifics of how you manipulate time and temperature (and quench medium, steel choice, etc.) to achieve your hamons without clay. What are the variables? What affect do particular changes to these variables have on the hamon?
 
Great post Nick! So if I understand correctly, by doing an interrupted quench the thinner sections of the knife are getting full hard while using the residual heat in the thicker sections of the knife to cool more slowly therefore giving a differential hardening.

Eric Fleming
www.flemingknives.com
 
Thanks guys. :)

I wish the video description would stay with the video when you embed it... If you click the "watch on youtube" button, you can see my description.

Sam- I mean quite a few things... Steel chemistry, thermal cycles, geometry of the blade (note the blade had the clip nearly finish ground coming out of the quench... then notice how the hamon wraps around the whole clip? ;) :) ). The rapid austenitization of the salt bath, the quick/agitated quench into a FAST commercial oil (Park50 of course ;)), the interuptions... It all plays into what happens in the steel.

You can change each element.... and change the results. :) Keep in mind, that doesn't necessarily mean you will like those changes, LMAO.


Eric- There are basically two "no clay" approaches that I have found will work, and yield cool/funky (IMHO) results.

You can do just like you said: soak the blade at austenitizing heat, and interrupt the quench so that the thicker steel can't cool off fast enough to get hard.

You can also heat the blade so that only the area you want to be hard goes into solution, then quench. You have to have a heat source that will allow rapid austenitization though. IMHO, the only way this second method will work, is if you have a salt bath, are very handy with a torch, or an induction forge. I think a kiln simply won't get the rapid heating effect.

A kiln will work just fine for the first method though. :)

IDK if it was clear enough in the video to see, but this blade was soaked through. When I pulled it from the salt bath, it was the same temp from tip to tail. I ran this one at 1460F.

Just like with clayed up blades... sometimes it doesn't work like you planned, and you gotta cuss and start over.


Personally, I really like this method because, if all goes as planned, it will give you a very organic, natural looking transition area. Some folks HATE it, and feel that it is a pseudo-hamon. I find that to be more of a gut reaction to the fact that it is not traditional, as well as a lack of understanding as to what is really happening when a blade is differentially hardened. The clay does not make the hamon... steel selection, times, temperatures, etc are what make the hamon. The clay just gives little nuances.

Don Fogg told me that ~12 years ago^^^

It took a while to get it through my thick skull. It doesn't help that there are so many WIP/tutorials where guys are posting photos with a butt load of clay, because they think the clay is what determines the result. Salem's recent thread with his wicked key-hole fighter is a prime example of someone doing it RIGHT! Minimal clay... and you can clearly see in his pics, that the hamon he got was gently nudged here and there by his clay lay-out.


Please don't think I'm trying to make it sound like I think I have this crap figured out... because I sure don't!!!


But I do know some of the things that DON'T work. ;) :D
 
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Very nice. Too much clay can leave you with a hamon that can dip down a bit too close to the edge in spots.
 
Though I did not polish it out like yours. I did a quench with a student who wanted to learn backyard methods. He teaches in South America and spends a lot of times in the bush so rudimentary tools are what he has available. I took a piece of railroad spring heated to temp in the forge and quenched it in old motor oil. The hamon that developed was gorgeous. It had wisps and a natural wave that was killer. I have not played with this since. I have a butt load of the spring and hope to play with it some more.

This just goes to show as Nick says, there is a lot to go along with this, type of steel, time, quench medium, heat, geometry and so forth. Hopefully I can duplicate it.

Great vid once again Nick and your hamons, well lets just say keep it up.
 
Old motor oil can give you some pretty good hamons for sure! The process for success is a lot different than Parks50 though...
 
Oh yea, the only reason I did it was him wanting to try something he had available. Was not intending to get any hamon. Full heat and straight in quench. The hamon was a complete though pleasant surprise.

This was not optimal heat treat by any means.
 
What kind of interrupted quench should I shoot for? How long in the first time and then how long out?
 
Nick-
That looks great, thanks for posting this. I remember when I first heard about clayless hamons, I chatted for a while with John Doyle about it. Once I wrapped my brain around it, everything clicked and it all seemed rather ingenious ;). I must say, I'm a bit surprised that some would call you a "liar" about this...

I watched Bruce Bingenheimer do a demo at a hammer in last year on this. He used 1095, a forge, and a 5 gallon bucket of hot water. After holding the blade at the correct temp for a prescribed time, he VERY quickly dunked it in the water and agitated it for a fast 5 seconds, then back out. You could see very similar "marks" on the blade like yours showed in the video afterwards.

I was fortunate enough to see one of the two blades he did finished out. It was incredible-the wispy, cloudy look was just plain impressive. I couldn't keep from staring and turning the blade over and over.

Just goes to show-do enough work and testing, and it most certainly can be done, and done quite well.


Jeremy
 
Thanks for posting guys! :)

Jeremy- I would have loved to watch Bruce's demo! I'm sure there were a lot of attendees that were "puckered up" right along with Bruce as he plunged that blade into the water! ;) :D

Chuck and Salem bring up some great points. A blade that is done like this is, from a technical standpoint, an incomplete heat treat.

For those of us that are shooting for repeatable, consistent results--- a complete transformation from austenite to martensite through the quenching process is typically the goal. But I think the cloudy stuff is just too damn cool not to pursue it. :D

Like Chuck described, sometimes this stuff can sneak up on you when you're not expecting it! LOL

Brian- That's the kind of thing you'll just have to mess around with to find out what works for you in your shop with your tools and materials. I'm not trying to keep any secrets... there's just no way for me to give you a good answer. I have a couple composition notebooks full of notes, and the most consistent thing is that there's no definitive recipe.
 
Nick, thanx for the temp clarification. I tried going below 1465f, but my forge didn't have even enough heat to get the blade edge hardened consistently. I have a kiln on order and it should be here this week. I was hoping it was going to arrive on Friday, but it didn't. I will be playing more with lower temps once I have the kiln.

Warren
 
Nick-
Yup, it was a great demo and I'm pretty certain there was some "pucker" being shared by those watching ;). I looked and had a few pics that I figured I'd share-I don't think Bing would mind.

Him answering questions while bringing a blade up to temp:


You wouldn't guess he could move so fast and he didn't end up melting the bucket, either :) :



Still smoking hot

 
NickWheeler


Thanks for posting guys!

Jeremy- I would have loved to watch Bruce's demo! I'm sure there were a lot of attendees that were "puckered up" right along with Bruce as he plunged that blade into the water!

Yes there is a bit of pucker up factor.:D ;)

Nick, thanks for taking the time to do this video.

Bing
 
OKAY, NICK YOU DA MAN. I have been playing around with a w2 bowtie for the past couple days. I tried a combo clay/interrupted quench. No clay interrupted. Clay straight in. Non of which produced what I would consider good. Either too close to the edge or no activity. I had had problems before when the grain structure got too fine the hamon was suppressed. So I took the blade back up to 1900f and a 3 step thermocycle. I tried it again and did a one second in 2out 3 in the parks 50. Gave me a cool double hamon but I still was not really happy. So I decided one more time. Took it to 1460f, no clay, three seconds in 2 out back in. I could tell immediately that things went better. Took it to the 100 grit belt and even at that rough grit could see the hamon and clouds.

I will post a pick as soon as I get it polished out. Nick is one heck of a great knife maker and teacher. Thank you again..
 
OKAY, NICK YOU DA MAN. I have been playing around with a w2 bowtie for the past couple days. I tried a combo clay/interrupted quench. No clay interrupted. Clay straight in. Non of which produced what I would consider good. Either too close to the edge or no activity. I had had problems before when the grain structure got too fine the hamon was suppressed. So I took the blade back up to 1900f and a 3 step thermocycle. I tried it again and did a one second in 2out 3 in the parks 50. Gave me a cool double hamon but I still was not really happy. So I decided one more time. Took it to 1460f, no clay, three seconds in 2 out back in. I could tell immediately that things went better. Took it to the 100 grit belt and even at that rough grit could see the hamon and clouds.

I will post a pick as soon as I get it polished out. Nick is one heck of a great knife maker and teacher. Thank you again..

What kind if thermal cycling?
 
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