Coarse edge stropping

In the food industry the edge of a cutting tool must meet standards, yes, theres actually a quality standard for a cutting instruments edge.

The V sharpener is two metal steels on springs that move and is used like a pull through sharpener. And IIRC approved for use in meat packing By the FDA (????)

As for test? the food industry did one and found the fine edge lasted longer, cut cleaner, had less fatigue on the operator, and needed less sharpening.

Divided camps? I don't think so but YMMV.
 
My guesses without any FDA guidelines - Steeling doesn't remove little bits of metal like sharpening does, so it doesn't leave little bits of metal in the work environment and ultimately your food. A polished edge also shouldn't collect as much debris for bacterial growth. There is probably also something to be said for a cleaner cut reducing the appearance of oxidation on the cut surfaces of the food. Also, sharpening stones are generally big, porous, and wet. Do you want one in use every work day, all day, to touch a knife edge before it slices up your dinner?
 
O-yes and who checks that edge to make sure its in compliance ? and by what standards as those are not listed at NIST . Now, fatigue I could buy and cutting cleaner maybe . But lasting longer no . As for sharpening on stones, you work your knife on it an then 'wash it' . Thats what soap is for . Still, I've not seen those test and cannot comment and they're probably written too confusing as well . DM
 
David Martin said:
Now, it down to, I didn't word it right . I never said the coarse edge was the right edge for everything (your words). I said it last longer based on these test and I'll continue to hold to this until someone shows me legitimate tests validating the contrary. DM
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Isn't this the crux of the discussion? Anyone who's done a fair amount of testing will have come to the conclusion that there is no one best edge preparation for all cutting tasks (period). The side discussions are endless. DM was simply tracking down the possibility that steel grades could significantly affect edge retention more so than edge grind while doing a fairly uniform task compared to previous outcomes, something that several contributors to this thread brought up as a possibility. It would seem that when using D2 to process chickens this is not the case.

HH
 
How you guys take this from cuts longer to the convoluted areas your writing now is your standard MO . If we can't poke holes in his test one way--take it another . DM
 
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Obviously it was too difficult to not get heated and defensive.
 
HeavyHanded said:
DM was simply tracking down the possibility that steel grades could significantly affect edge retention more so than edge grind
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Buck tested this with their Edge2K sharpening. Both steel and edge configuration have large effects on edge retention when measured on CATRA. A 420HC blade could outperform a BG-42 blade when it had a better edge grind. But at equal edges, the higher alloyed, higher wear resistant steel won. Both do have a significant effect on edge retention.
 
I was under the impression the Buck edge 2k was based more on edge angle rather than the grit the edge was worked to. In this context the discussion was whether changing the steel type would have a significant outcome on edge retention if all other variables save the edge grind were the same.

In any event, Buck certainly doesn't ship their knives with a 10,000 grit edge, or anything close to that. I'd be amazed if they were any higher than an equivalent 600 with a quick power strop or paper wheel to remove the burr.
 
HeavyHanded said:
I was under the impression the Buck edge 2k was based more on edge angle rather than the grit the edge was worked to. In this context the discussion was whether changing the steel type would have a significant outcome on edge retention if all other variables save the edge grind were the same.

In any event, Buck certainly doesn't ship their knives with a 10,000 grit edge, or anything close to that. I'd be amazed if they were any higher than an equivalent 600 with a quick power strop or paper wheel to remove the burr.
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It was on TV once and I think is was 320 grit followed by a paper wheel.
 
My mistake, when you said edge grind, I thought you were talking about grind angle. Which of course hasn't been the focus of this thread. In my personal lexicon, I use edge grind for angle and edge finish for grit level.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Isn't this the crux of the discussion? Anyone who's done a fair amount of testing will have come to the conclusion that there is no one best edge preparation for all cutting tasks (period). The side discussions are endless. DM was simply tracking down the possibility that steel grades could significantly affect edge retention more so than edge grind while doing a fairly uniform task compared to previous outcomes, something that several contributors to this thread brought up as a possibility. It would seem that when using D2 to process chickens this is not the case.

HH
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I think the main contention was that the edge only lasts longer in those tests if the measure of edgeholding is the ability to saw at something. If the edgeholding is measured by a loss of sharpness, then the tests no longer show the same thing, as the coarse edge doesn't even begin at the same level of sharpness. I don't think there is a major issue with the work done at all, just the way that the outcome is worded.

Yes, the edge is able to cut rope longer, but that doesn't really demonstrate greater edge retention, as it hasn't retained a sharper edge, it has only retained an edge that cuts rope longer. It would be much like pushcutting paper, and proclaiming that the fine edge cuts 4 times as long, because the coarse edge won't even begin to cut it. Each test would favor one edge, and the method for judging the edge favors a particular edge.

I don't say this to slight David's test, but only to illustrate the difference: It seems that the way to measure edge retention would be to measure sharpness after a series of tasks, not the ability to continue at the same task. Once again, we get back to the issue of a coarse edge being able to tear at something even though it has lost its sharpness, which is sort of the heart of the matter, and what I think the real contention is between David and others. Yes, the knife can continue cutting rope, but no, that is not a measure of sharpness, which is implied by edge retention.

Unless I am just all washed up...:D
 
Many things factor into edge retention, sharpness being one, edge angle another and stone grit another, no burr, ect.. But in the end I found out which cut up the most chicken . Simple ! Its this conclusion thats hard to stomach among some . DM
 
Any Cal. said:
Yes, the knife can continue cutting rope, but no, that is not a measure of sharpness, which is implied by edge retention.
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I think the fact that it could cut the rope in the first place would imply that the edge is "sharp". The fact that it can continue to do so relative to some other variable would seem to imply edge retention. Perhaps what is eluding this conversation is some generic definition of the word "sharp" - a definition that it may be impossible for everyone to agree upon.


Yes, the edge is able to cut rope longer, but that doesn't really demonstrate greater edge retention, as it hasn't retained a sharper edge, it has only retained an edge that cuts rope longer. It would be much like pushcutting paper, and proclaiming that the fine edge cuts 4 times as long, because the coarse edge won't even begin to cut it. Each test would favor one edge, and the method for judging the edge favors a particular edge.
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Wouldn't this statement imply that there isn't one definition of sharp that can be applied to every edged tool? As I've said many times, "sharp" is a relative term - relative to the material being cut and the media used to produce the edge. If two bevels come together at a consistent angle and without a burr, they're sharp. What that edge is good for is going to depend on the grind, edge angle, steel, cutting technique etc etc. I'd venture to say that cutting chicken carcasses is going to involve several aspects of cutting and therefore be a slightly better measure of edge utility than a test involving only one type of cutting or media to be cut. Another aspect of David's test that seems to be slipping by - the fine edged D2 steel initially did perform the job acceptably, if not well, unlike the rope/paper analogy.
 
I've said before that my coarsely sharpened edges 'can' push cut paper . Which is not the measuring rod for sharpness . Heavy's above statement gets closer . Buck's edge 2000 had much to do with the grind leading up to the edge and then the thinness of the edge bevel and how this improved/influenced cutting . Not how grits affect edge retention as this is our topic here . DM
 
HeavyHanded said:
Perhaps what is eluding this conversation is some generic definition of the word "sharp" - a definition that it may be impossible for everyone to agree upon.
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That is sort of what I am getting at. I don't have an issue with the idea that one edge was able to continue longer at the task.
 
HeavyHanded,

Thanks very much for this thread. My apologies for dragging it up from the depths.

Was recently lamenting that one of my AUS-8 blades can take a polished, pushcutting edge with the best of them, but quickly loses it when using the knife for cutting stuff outdoors. Comes back quickly, but what's the point? Had even found my wishing its manufacturer would just make a serrated version for the extra edge retention and then this thread you started popped into my head. Will be trying a coarse edge (either 80 or 120 grit - it's what's available) and stropping off the burr with some 220 grit sandpaper and see how it holds up when the weather exposes more items in need of slicing. Thanks for the inspiration!
 
thombrogan said:
HeavyHanded,

Thanks very much for this thread. My apologies for dragging it up from the depths.

Was recently lamenting that one of my AUS-8 blades can take a polished, pushcutting edge with the best of them, but quickly loses it when using the knife for cutting stuff outdoors. Comes back quickly, but what's the point? Had even found my wishing its manufacturer would just make a serrated version for the extra edge retention and then this thread you started popped into my head. Will be trying a coarse edge (either 80 or 120 grit - it's what's available) and stropping off the burr with some 220 grit sandpaper and see how it holds up when the weather exposes more items in need of slicing. Thanks for the inspiration!
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Ha ha, I was just considering reviving this thread to update my most recent results when I noticed you got the ball rolling.
Anyhoo, here's what I've found regarding coarse edge stropping - it works, well. I'm currently EDCing a TOPS C.A.T. in their 1095 carbon steel. I sharpened it up on 120 grit SiC using firm leather under sandpaper. I then stropped it using 120 grit lapping compound. Since I'm not used to a carbon steel blade, I've had some issues with rusting that I'm still getting used to. Between using it everyday and having to scrub off the occasional rust blossom, this edge is seeing plenty of use ( nylon scotchie abuse) as well as an unfortunate spill edge-down on my garage floor! A few swipes on the 120 grit strop and it's back to arm-hair shaving sharp, will push cut newspaper, yet retains the aggressive cutting I favor in a coarse edge. At 30x the grind still appears crisp, clean, and burr free. I've refreshed the edge perhaps half a dozen times using this method and am very happy with the results. I've done a few tests with 200-320 grit sandpaper followed by the 220 grit lapping compound and the results are equally good (albeit in a slightly more refined edge). This has changed my whole philosophy regarding stropping (as illustrated by my response to the other strop thread currently running). I've used the 120 grit compound on edge grinds down to the 60-80 grit range, but it gives the best results at 100-120 grit. The big stropping compounds I'm using are for sharpening gang reel mowers used on golf courses and should be available anywhere stuff like that is sold, as well as from some industrial supply catalogs.

Best of Luck
HH
 
I too get ease of maintenance stropping on my leather with 200g slurry applied . This quickly brings my edge back to push cutting performance plus the additional benefit of greater edge retention offered w/ the coarsely sharpened edge and more utility . Just too many benefits for me not to go with it . Thank you as well . DM
 
try using an 80 grit belt on h1 steel. use real light pressure and work up the minimum ammount of a burr possible. i couldnt believe how grabby the edge was after finishing on the slotted wheel.
 
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